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Topic: Why a D10? |
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 9 Oct 2018 7:32 am |
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| Daniel Morris wrote: |
I feel that's both the beauty and at least a potential drawback for the instrument.
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It's only a drawback if you view it as a drawback ! 
It's all good, they are ALL good !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2018 12:56 pm
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By drawback, I was primarily referring to potential new players. If someone is interested in playing guitar, piano, mandolin, or something else, they are all pretty standard (atypical variations aside). With pedal steel, even a single neck may not be standard (Emmons or Day? How many levers and which ones do what? 3, 4, or 5 pedals? Franklin pedal or not? 10 or 12 strings?)
As I say, that is a beautiful aspect, but I believe if I were starting out today, I'm not sure I'd know which way to turn.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amps w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Origin, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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W. C. Edgar
From:
Iowa City Iowa, Madison CT, Nashville, Austin, Phoenix, L or R Coast Soon!
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Posted 9 Oct 2018 4:45 pm
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One reason, 'voicing'
Long live the D-10
_________________
First owner of Steelseat.com
1980 Sho-Bud Pro II & 1977 Sho-Bud Pro l
Lawrence 610 Pickups
1979 Peavey LTD
1980 Peavey Nashville 400
Goodrich L-120
Toured with Tim McGraw, Alan Jackson & more
wcedgar.com |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2018 4:16 am
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I'm afraid I don't quite understand, WC: could you elaborate on what you mean by voicing?
Naturally there are some grips which are a little different on U12, but I would be glad to hear your take on voicings.
(One nice feature of my RKL is that it gives me the equivalent of a C6 C or G note on top.)
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amps w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Origin, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2018 5:47 am
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Voicing is in the ear of the behearer.
Perception is reality.
If you perceive a D10 is your voicing, letter rip! |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 10 Oct 2018 6:49 am
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Many players have different pickups on each of the D10 neck.. Possibly even different strings.
I am not that fussy. Perception of tone changes day to day so I dont really chase tone too much.. Except that there is a vast difference between a shobud and an Emmons PP and both are very interesting to me. One is a french horn and the other a saxaphone.
There is also a distinct difference in vibe or feel between the upper and lower deck. I always prefer the lower deck.
I like a D10 for the full coped of the C6 neck. I play a Uni as well, mostly for jamming because thats the guitar I cut my teeth on. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2018 10:25 am
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I've always had a Steel with Modular pickups, which allows for multiple voicings, so fwiw, I never even thought about that. 
I would think that if I played a D10 I would want the multi-voicing Modular pickup system, too. |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 10 Oct 2018 6:09 pm
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a little late here, but
I think the obvious reason a lot of us play a D-10 is because that's what our heroes and the greatest who ever lived play(ed). and there's a reason 95% of them never made the switch to a Uni.
the idea of condensing 2 necks into one is very alluring but as Buddy said, each tuning loses something by combining them. I found that to be true, and I was also thrown off by the 2 extra strings. 10 feels just right to me.
for me, the tunings are so distinct from each other that it's best to keep them separate... if it ain't broke, don't fix it  I just think and play so much differently on E9 vs C6.
truth be told, I'd like to have a Uni in the house and an extended E9 (and C6 for that matter) even if they rarely got played. I applaud anyone who plays a 12 or 14-string. it's one more thing I love about this instrument: vive la difference!
(it's also worth mentioning that some folks think a D-10 has better tone, even if they never touch the back neck.)
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Franklin
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Posted 11 Oct 2018 2:13 pm
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Daniel,
Why a D10? Its in the interval math.
20 strings
4 floor pedals and 5 knees designated to the E9th tuning
6 floor pedals and 5 knees designated to the C6th tuning
Both legs are always free to bend strings for more combinations with levers.
Paul |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2018 5:56 pm
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Here's a good vid of Buddy playing a D10 live using both E9 and C6th necks, Harmoncis, Ebow, not to mention Danny Gatton.
This song is in the Swing Series with a good background track, too.
Canadian Sunset:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9G5k92Ppw4 |
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Drew Pierce
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2018 5:01 pm
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There is also a subtle sympathetic condition having two different tunings and voicings on the same guitar body. Anybody who plays D10 for long has probably found that if the E9 neck sounds "off" for some reason and all the strings are in tune according to the tuner, check the tuning on the C6 and you will almost always find that that neck is out of tune. Tune it up and you're back in business.
_________________
Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 15 Oct 2018 1:19 am
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the abundance of learning material and teachers would also be, SHOULD also be , a major consideration as well.
I hope that the argument isn't that a U12 is a better overall choice because it somehow allows more flexibility on a single tuning. That would be a misconception. All Instruments are capable of many things which of course are driven by the player and what they are studying. The instrument is the "fixed" asset.
One only has to listen to 25 versions of members playing the same song on a typical 10 string single neck guitar and we will quickly learn ( hear ) that all 25 will approach the same song totally different . It ain't the guitar or the 10 string tuning. Some will play very exotic arrangements some will play very basic arrangements which leads us back to the question.
Why a Uni over a D10 ? Which to me is quite clear.
Personal preference for a few varied reasons , none of which have to do with actually being capable of playing and learning.
I have my E's on the left leg, half of the people on this forum think they should be split, left and right. But at the end of the day both E changes are on the guitar, how I use them is a personal preference. Whether or not I can play some "phrasing" exactly the same as someone else is totally irrelevant, my zero reference point is both E's on the left leg, everything I do comes from that ref point. My approach, my style, my madness, my process for working out new material , starts right there, E's on the left leg. Nothing else matters !
U12 vs a D10, Whats the question again ?
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 Oct 2018 8:01 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
the abundance of learning material and teachers would also be, SHOULD also be , a major consideration as well.
I hope that the argument isn't that a U12 is a better overall choice because it somehow allows more flexibility on a single tuning. That would be a misconception. All Instruments are capable of many things which of course are driven by the player and what they are studying. The instrument is the "fixed" asset.
One only has to listen to 25 versions of members playing the same song on a typical 10 string single neck guitar and we will quickly learn ( hear ) that all 25 will approach the same song totally different . It ain't the guitar or the 10 string tuning. Some will play very exotic arrangements some will play very basic arrangements which leads us back to the question.
Why a Uni over a D10 ? Which to me is quite clear.
Personal preference for a few varied reasons , none of which have to do with actually being capable of playing and learning.
I have my E's on the left leg, half of the people on this forum think they should be split, left and right. But at the end of the day both E changes are on the guitar, how I use them is a personal preference. Whether or not I can play some "phrasing" exactly the same as someone else is totally irrelevant, my zero reference point is both E's on the left leg, everything I do comes from that ref point. My approach, my style, my madness, my process for working out new material , starts right there, E's on the left leg. Nothing else matters !
U12 vs a D10, Whats the question again ?
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The lack of learning material should not be a big factor in choosing a U12 over a D10. Since most of the C6 changes are available on the U12, any C6 learning material should be valid for a U12. You just have to remember that the open position is B, not C. Only a problem if you need open strings and doing hammer-ons and pull-offs. But if you are playing an instrumental, have the band transpose down a fret.
If I was starting right now, I might go the U12 route. When I started (1971), the E9/B6 tuning wasn't prevalent like it is now. Most uni players I ever heard about were playing the Bb6 uni, ala Maurice Anderson.
I am a D10 guy, but last year I switched to an S12 ext E9. Why? The bands I have been playing with weren't playing anything for C6. As my back problems got worse, I didn't see the need to carry that fully loaded, and HEAVY, D10 around. I decided that I wanted to go back to "basics", with only 3p4k as a challenge to myself. Not working that well, but I can get by. My D10 had 5p6k on D10 E9. I do miss a couple of changes and may add a pedal and vertical lever.
And, I still have my D10 if needed.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Bill L. Wilson
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2018 8:18 pm I Took What Was Available.
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| When I bought my last steel, a D-10 Emmons LeGrande II was available and for sale, so for $2500 bucks I started carrying around a C6 neck I never use. At “72†this old dog ain’t learnin’ any new tricks. But, it does impress the girls. The boys in the band always help me loading in and out. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2018 8:45 am
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I’m 74 and I’m going to drag my D-10 around until I can’t and when I can’t, I’ll get some help to drag it around. Never really mess with a U-12 but they really didn’t sound like commercial steel to me, especially the C6th sound which I understand is really B6th on a universal. I play most of our rock stuff we play, which isn’t much, on C6 and also most swing stuff. Can’t imagine being without it.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 16 Oct 2018 11:48 am
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| I’m 74 and I’m going to drag my D-10 around until I can’t and when I can’t, I’ll get some help to drag it around. |
I'm with ya Henry, just turned 70. I owned 3 Steels a year or so back, one was an S10 Sho Bud Pro 1 . I would bring it to gigs rather than the D10 ( 2x Emmons ) then would be bummed out on the gig because I didn't bring the D10.
solved that problem
Sold the S10 ! Now one of the D10s' comes to every gig.
Transporting is simple for me, one stays set up in the music room the other stays in the case by the door. I use a nice cart from the car to the stage.
I would certainly agree that learning how to transport a 65 or 70 pound piece of gear is very important at any age. A U12 is not 50 % lighter than a D10, it may be 5 or 10 pounds lighter . Its not made of cotton !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Last edited by Tony Prior on 17 Oct 2018 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2018 4:42 pm
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Thanks again for all the replies, gents - I appreciate the thought behind some of the posts, and it's been very interesting for me to read all of them.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amps w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Origin, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2018 7:39 pm
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
In addition, many players start on a single neck student guitar, the natural progression is to move to a more configured single neck then on to a double neck. At this point they do not need to relearn the E9th, they (we) are just adding the C6 to what we already know and are comfortable with.
I suspect that if there were student U12's at comparable prices , things may be different.
If a player spends 2 years studying the E9th and getting familiar with it, I doubt they would move to a U12 and begin the journey all over again.
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You’ve been reading my mail, Tony.
“many players start on a single neck student guitar, the natural progression is to move to a more configured single neck then on to a double neck.†—-I didn’t realize I was following such a familiar and predictable path. Very disappointing...  |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 12:40 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
“many players start on a single neck student guitar, the natural progression is to move to a more configured single neck then on to a double neck.†—-I didn’t realize I was following such a familiar and predictable path. Very disappointing... |
Fred, I don't think it's disappointing, it's a process called education ! Some folks go to College for 4 years, then maybe add another 4 after that, but they all have to start with year 1. Some people change majors and start all over again, then when they are done 4 years later they still don't know what they want to do ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 4:06 am
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Tony, this thread wasn't meant to say anyone's choice is wrong or lesser - I was only curious as to the 'why'. (Naturally, each of us feels our choices are best, or presumably we'd switch).
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| If a player spends 2 years studying the E9th and getting familiar with it, I doubt they would move to a U12 and begin the journey all over again. |
Welllll, that's what I did, more or less.
I posted in another thread here; I started out on a 6 string lap steel (1971), then a Fender 8 string/4 pedal steel ('72), then a S10 ('75), and ended up on a U12 ('79). Going from an S10 to a U12 did not prove intimidating or confusing, though naturally it was a big step.
You're certainly right that it all depends on the player and what he or she wants.
Now I know more about those choices than when I asked the question.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amps w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Origin, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 7:26 am
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| Quote: |
| If a player spends 2 years studying the E9th and getting familiar with it, I doubt they would move to a U12 and begin the journey all over again. |
This is also exactly what I did.
I played a Sho-Bud S10 E9 3x1 for about a year and a half, first in my High School Country-Rock Band, and then got a wed-sat gig playing 5-45min sets a night 9pm-1:45am.
Then I went to a week long Jeff Newman seminar, and ordered a brand new Emmons S12U 7x4 the week after Jeff's.
About 2 years into S10 E9, I went all out on S12U
I still have that Sho-Bud!... it is now an S10U with a 7x5 Sho-Pro undercarriage. |
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Igor Fiksman
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 1:28 am
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Simple answer - twice the fun! There's something really special about using each tuning as a distinct separate instrument, It's almost like using a different part of your brain for each one. I like getting to the part of the set where C6 is to be used and a different approach kicks in, different muscle memory is being exercised etc. I have never played a Uni, but I imagine I would miss that mental click switching between the 2 tunings. Plus, I'm a total C6 newby compared to E9, so there's so many more exciting things left to learn on both!
_________________
SHO-BUD Professional SD-10 Black, SHO-BUD Pro III Custom D-10 Red, Goodrich Matchbox 6A, Steeler's Choice seat, Quilter Steelaire Amps. |
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Dave Campbell
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 1:59 am
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i learned on an s10 e9, but recently i decided to take the plunge into c6 (and rationalize my wanting an emmons push pull). while i still have plenty of work to do on that neck, i find moving to the back neck and messing around with c6 to be a nice break in my practice sessions while still using my time wisely. there seems to be a moderate demand for classic western swing type stuff lately in my neck of the woods.
i like old gear, and most pro level old steels are readily available as d10.
there is lots of learning material for e9 and c6.
while having it all on one neck is appealing, i wouldn't want to fool myself into thinking that the universal tuning wouldn't take a lot of work...it would use up time that i could be using to keep advancing on the two necks i have.
i only have to lift the thing a few times a week, and i don't know how much lighter a fully loaded push pull s12 universal would really be. i'm guessing not that much. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 7:03 am
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Daniel,
I've been playing now since the '70s. Although the time I spend playing E9 as opposed to C6 equates to about 80%/20% I have learned from bitter experience NOT to deprive myself of the C neck!
Over the years I've gone from D-10 to SD-10 then back to D-10. At the time I bought the single-neck steels I was convinced that it was 'all I really needed' so why add all that weight?
Not much daylight left for this old guy either but I won't make that mistake again. As for universal/extended E9, I tried them but seriously missed the D string. For me, it has to be there - it's vital for my approach.
I do have a single-neck (a Zum Encore) but that's a 'fly guitar' - as great an instrument as it is, the sheer joy of finding chord voicings on C6 trumps it every time. We can search out obtuse chords on E9 but there's a timbre to the back neck that's all its own.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 4:44 pm W.C. Nailed it here
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| W. C. Edgar wrote: |
One reason, 'voicing'
Long live the D-10 |
I'm sure thats the reason most people haul them around.
I've had two D-10's in 42 years of playing. One was 40 years ago for four years and I have one now but still play SD-10's much more.
The Big E and lots of great players used D-10's and others like Lloyd Green leave no one wishing that he played a double. Any steel sounds wonderful in the hands of a talented player. That's my 2¢ worth! 
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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