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Topic: Base chords vs passing tones in C6 |
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 12 Oct 2018 9:38 pm |
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Most of my C6 playing has developed intuitively from playing by ear. I guess that is one place to start and given the massive investment required in deep understanding, I have been ok with that approach.
I consider it to be "driving without a license" though 
My basic approach is open, P5, P5+C#, P6, P5+P6, and a bit of P7 as base chords and P7 and a few levers as passing tones.
I have the Emmons standard 5x5 C6 coped.
I want to start playing off chord charts like found in Jazz Standards music books. I am familiar with chord construction theory.
As I map out all the possible chords names with pedal and lever combinations and grips and roots and bar positions, this thing is blowing up in my face.
So I would like to simplify. What is your approach to make this limited yet effective enough to rein it into something a mortal can manage.
Which pedal and levers represent your "base chords? And which represent your passing tones and resolutions?
Hopefully thst will help narrow this exercise down to something manageable.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 13 Oct 2018 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Campbell
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 6:16 am
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i'm kind of in the same boat with c6 as you are, tom (maybe a bit farther back in the boat). i've been using herb steiner's essay as a guide whenever working out c6 parts.
http://www.herbsteinermusic.com/C6_essay.pdf
as you say, it's a lot to take in, but i'm trying to use what i can hear (if that makes sense) and then building off of that.
i've pondered getting a skype lesson on c6 just to get a more solid foundation of how the thing works. i often wonder whether or not having a straight steel background would be useful, 'cos i have none. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 6:32 am
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Dave, thanks for the link. A great resource right there.
Still overwhelming I would say but helpful nonetheless. Could anyone possibly remember all those chords names and positions for all of the chords?
Maybe it would be better to master common chord progressions on different neck positions and then blend in intuitive passing note or chromaticism options into those progressions?
Any other simplified approaches that can get me playing quickly from chord charts. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 7:36 am
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Tom,
Have you worked through any of the C6th courses for the Jazz Standards you are interested in?
Jim Loessberg is one guy who is really great at the Jazz stuff, Youtubes, Instruction, etc. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 10:16 am
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Pete, I have heard and met Jim L at a steel show, he is amazing.
If it is strictly tab to learn the song of interest.. That is not specificall what I am after.
I want to be able to play straight off chord charts in real time. Maybe the best way is to start trying to play off chord charts.. And hack my way through finding the combinations until I develop the correlations. |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 10:55 am
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This appears by the description to be in the direction I am after. Thx for the tip. |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 1:06 pm
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One thing to consider - jazz standards share many of the same basic moves, ii V I’s for example, and if you learn as many ways as possible to do the most common progressions the process is much easier
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 1:56 pm
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Tip is the least I could do for another Alberta boy!
Per Master Woitach’s point, that synopsis has a ton of ii-V- I’s laid out. Don’t tell Cohen I said anything nice! |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 4:05 pm
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Christopher: I recall you put together a few hours of steel guitar jazz for solo gigs over the years... Describe where you are at with respect to chord knowledge and how you are approaching the instrument these days.
Ken: Nice. Where from? |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 7:04 pm
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Well, I’ve been a professional jazz guitarist for 30+ years, and teach jazz guitar at a few schools in the Portlland/Salem area. I have a video on Truefire called “Jazz Texturesâ€, which is largely about expanding your chord vocabulary, particularly in the area of smaller, mobile chords to add texture and self accompaniment to your improvised lines. There’s a few episodes of the video on YouTube. My chord knowledge is fairly deep, which has been helpful in learning to play jazz pedal steel - not that the instrument hasn’t kicked my butt at every turn! I wouldn’t say I’m a great steel player by any means, but I’m getting better, I think.
As far as how I approach the instrument these days, I do a combination of many things - play transcriptions of solos by various jazz players (a lot of Charlie Parker) to increase my jazz vocabulary on the steel, experiment with chord voicings, usually in the context of jazz standards, work on combinations of line pockets and chords, practice improvising in real time, and do various contextual technical exercises. I practice a lot.
I play jazz steel and guitar gigs here the Portlland area with various groups, and occasionally play some country steel, which isn’t my strong suit, although I’m think I’m getting better.
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 7:23 pm
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I should add - very important - I have taken lessons from a few remarkable players:
Maurice Anderson (I’m soooooo lucky - crucial to any success I have on playing the instrument
Travis Toy - very very smart and thoughtful player who has really thought about the mechanics of picking and blocking, as well as creative and innovative soloist on the E9 guitar
Buck Reid - very deep on both necks, although we just talked about the 6th tuning, incredible player and very knowledgeable
I’ve also had a lot of help from some friends - Jim Cohen, Sez Adamson, Rick Schmidt, David Wright, Dean Rankin, Pete Burak, Lynn Stafford... everyone has been so patient and supportive of my process on the steel guitar. I know I’m forgetting someone here, but there’s been a lot of help!
Also - I play S12 Bb6 Universal tuning, been playing around 8 years
Sorry to go on and on, but you asked..
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 8:06 pm
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Wow. You have a lot on the go!
I have a few jazz tunes in my singing set. But I think I am spread too thin to ever push hard on six string. I know an anazing female jazz singer so I am trying to build up some jazz accompaniment skills that can interplay with her piano.
One of the topics I floated a month or so ago was rejigging an Emmons PP S12 Uni to a different coped than the E9/B6 Jeff Newmann coped that is on it.
Curious to see your coped and your thoughts on it... I don"t have much time before I have to nail it down. |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2018 9:45 pm
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Here’s my copedent. I’m not sure it’s of much value to you on a push pull, since I have no idea what can be put on one - I have a 2011 MSA Studio Pro.
I love Bb6, it suits my needs and brain, but not many people play that tuning..
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2018 3:05 am
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I studied jazz on the C6 neck for a year by working with a six string teacher. This forced me to attack musical principles and figure them out on the steel, rather than start from the point of view of the instrument. Unfortunately, I just couldn't devote the study time away from lessons to get very far, but a couple of basic ideas stuck that might be relevant.
1) Know all the notes on the fretboard. There are various devices for ingraining these, doesn't matter how you do it. The point is that many jazz chords will involve altering a basic chord and/or are substitutes for some part of another chord. If you know exactly where to find a note, you'll be way ahead of the game. And this leads to point two.
2) jazz chord patterns are all about voice leading (and, when you think about it, this is entirely true of country and pop playing on the E9 neck as well). It is always helpful to have a consistent melodic thread through the chord changes. Doing so will probably lead you to drop some notes from more complex chords, but that's okay: if there is a logical melodic thread. holding a note or moving step-wise--preferably in one consistent direction--through a chord sequence, the function of the chords will make sense even if a note is missing (including the bass or root).
I wish I had more time to devote to jazz on steel (or period). But I think these two ideas pay dividends for any playing on C6 or E9th. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2018 8:33 am
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Hi Tom,
I was thinking about your S12U Push Pull, and if you just switched the order of the first three strings to D#, G#, F#, (minor surgury), and tuned your E's to Eb, (maybe tune the whole tuning to C6th), you would be able to play along with all the Buddy Emmons Swing Series CD's, which I think would get you in the ballpark of sight reading Jazz Standards.
Someone posted this album on Youtube, but there are 5 or more albums of this stuff with tab and rhythm tracks:
I'm playing along this morning on my Push Pull Emmons S12U.
Go to 22:30 and play along with Canadian Sunset in G, fret 8 with E's lowered, use string 1 too.
The intro lick is in E9th (great for S12U!)... strings 5 and 6, slide 12 frets up starting at fret 3 G, then slide to fret 10 with AB, release/engage AB.
Those next power Chords are fret8 P5, then fret11 P5 (E's lowered).
The rest is mostly 2minor > 5 > 1:
The bridge lick is basically a walk down from the 5 chord.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq95k_zGqFk&t=553s
Last edited by Pete Burak on 19 Oct 2018 3:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Steve Knight
From:
NC
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Posted 19 Oct 2018 11:53 am Re: Base chords vs passing tones in C6
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| Tom Gorr wrote: |
| So I would like to simplify. |
I think this is really key to getting comfortable reading charts. I'm a lousy steeler, but a decent jazz guitarist. This is what worked for me.
1--simplifying the voicings in the charts. A lot of charts will include chord alterations and extensions, often becuase they're placing a melody note into the chord voicing. This can make the charts difficult to sight read. Voicings like b5, +9, b9, etc are just dominant 7th chords. A lot of players (Joe pass, for one) just think in terms of major, minor, dominant and diminished chords. If you are comfortable simplifying the voicings "on the fly", it will be easier to play through the charts.
2--learn one move/progression at a time in all 12 keys. This was really important for me on guitar and steel. Take a simple ii-V-I progression, or better yet, ii-V-I-VI and play it over and over. Don't vary it. Then do it in all 12 keys. I used that as a warm-up on guitar for years. It solidified muscle-memory and the sound of the progression. Hearing the changes in the context of 12 different keys was really helpful for me. You also get used to playing in all 12 keys. Once you have one version/voicing for the progression down pat in all 12 keys, then add another voicing. At some point, you'll be able to play in all 12 keys within a few frets. For now, don't be afraid to jump around...3rd fret for key of G, 8 for C, etc. Playing in 12 keys will be crucial, too, as singers will want to play tunes in other keys.
3--stick to root/3rd/7th voicings. Yes, you'll want to add color later, but for getting down the basics and getting comfortable, this is a great place to staet. I'd even play only the 3rd/7th of each chord if you have a play-along (or can hear the progression in your head.)
4--look for common progressions in the charts. Besides the ii-V-I (VI), another common one is IV to iv to I. In jazz, this is often "disguised" (Jimmy Bruno's term) with a ii-V. For example, F to F minor to C may be F to Fm7/Bb7 to C, or F to Bb7 to C. Once you learn to "see" these commonalities in all keys, the charts will be easier to read. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 20 Oct 2018 6:36 pm
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Dan: thanks for the solid advice. Do you learn note names to establish the chordal roots or the melody lines? I find I can find the melody lines by ear but knowing by memory the chord locations and names would be an asset. I can play stuff that sounds right but have no idea what the chords are unless I reverse engineer them.
Pete: thanks for thinking of my Emmons dilemma... i am thinking you are correct in rejigging the strings in that way. Whenever I think I should trade it for an S10 I just think I would have eternal regrets because it is an exceptional amazing toned specimen.. I just need to get it working for me. That Ray / Buddy duo is great. I far prefer Ray to Sinatra. Great youtube treasure andI will probably buy a few of the lessons to go along with it just because...
Steve: that's a very helpful idea to just look at the chords as Maj Min Dom and Dim. And you are correct to learn the progressions.. I am working on ii V i stuff tonight. |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2018 1:11 am
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| Jeff Newman talks about learning the patterns of how to move from chord to chord, and not trying to remember every specific chord. Maybe this, with the advice from Chris Woitach' first post here, about some of the basic jazz chord progressions (esp the ii V I) may be a way for you to approach it. I haven't even started to tinker with my C6 yet. Good luck. Also, if you can find them, Jamie Abersol has some great jazz play-alongs with books with the progressions to each song with them which are great - I used to use them on 6-string. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2018 9:02 am
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So much great advice here, even for a lowly E9 beginner like me! Thank you all!
It seems to me one of the points driven home in Herb Steiner’s document is the elementary concept of chord synonyms, and how a single grip/changer combination can have multiple chord names and a variety of resulting applications. This is a big help when working out a voice leading to a progression, as well as playing “in positionâ€. For example, a grip for D9 (no root) would work as Am6, F#m7#5, and Ab7#5b9, all in the same position. Something to keep in mind when working out all those ii-V-I possibilities.
Herb’s layout is also valuable because the intervals of all the chords are listed, which again helps for voice leading and for single note soloing. Maybe it is not quite as important to learn all the note names on the neck, but rather the intervallic relationships of notes to the tonal center or chord voicing. |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2018 9:29 am
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| Quote: |
| Do you learn note names to establish the chordal roots or the melody lines? |
That's a good question. In an ideal world: both. But in reality, I am more like you: I have discovered patterns that work well, and I let my ear guide me through them. Sometimes I find myself jumping to a new place on the neck for a grip, and only recognize as it happens (or a moment later) that it was to continue a melody line. I could stop and tell you the melodic note at any given point, but it would come from a combination of fretboard knowledge and knowing by ear where the melody is in the scale.
On both C6 and E9 there are chords that I know will work in a certain context, even though I don't ever think about what notes are in them or how they would be labeled. (I should, and I would be a better player and musician if I did). One that comes to mind involves pedals 6 and 7 on C6. The very simple application of pedal 6 is to turn the no-pedals I chord (root on the seventh string [or tenth]) into a IV7. Adding pedal 7 gives a very rich extended chord. I can tell you by thinking about it that it adds #4 and 6 (B-natural and D against an F7 harmony in open position), and I can intuit where that chord will work and where it will not. But I am not cognizant of its name or constituent notes when I play it. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2018 10:04 am
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| Dan Beller-McKenna wrote: |
| [I can tell you by thinking about it that it adds #4 and 6 (B-natural and D against an F7 harmony in open position), and I can intuit where that chord will work and where it will not. But I am not cognizant of its name or constituent notes when I play it. |
#4=b5. The b5 in F7 is the B note. You now have an altered B7 chord that is the tritone (b5) of F7 and can be used as the V7 of E major. Add the D (11 semitones above the Eb in the F7 chord) for the added tension of the #9 of B7 and apply it in your ii7-V7-I. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2018 11:20 am
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A good method for learning note names is to run a Boss TU-2 guitar tuner in line.
It has a nice readout of whatever note your pick.
You can easily play and see the notes in any pedal/lever Chord combo you are at. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 23 Oct 2018 3:56 pm Re: Base chords vs passing tones in C6
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| Tom Gorr wrote: |
My basic approach is open, P5, P5+C#, P6, P5+P6, and a bit of P7 as base chords and P7 and a few levers as passing tones.
(Text deleted)
Which pedal and levers represent your "base chords? And which represent your passing tones and resolutions?
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Just want to focus this in a bit.
What combinations and grips do you primarily focus as your go to base chords, and what changes do you use for your melodic lines. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 23 Oct 2018 5:25 pm
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Hey, I'd like to thank Fred Treece for his compliments and his appreciation of my C6 pedal/chord essay. It's the combinations I predominantly use when I'm figuring out an arrangement on the C6/5p/5k tuning.
It is by no means all the chords that those pedal combinations can produce if you consider ALL the tonic notes of ALL the keys. Things can be a little complicated by different names for chords that are enharmonic. Example: the chords in F# and Gb are the same but are written out differently.
Anyway, here's a suggestion or recommendation, to learning songs that are more musically involved than basic I-IV-V. Get Great American Songbag songbooks and work up the arrangements of songs there that you already know, so you don't have to learn to read notation (although it certainly wouldn't hurt  ). And if you're not sure of the melody, go to YouTube and find it there. Then go back to the sheet music and fit the chords to the melody. Or vice versa.
The best bargain of that type of book I've found is the Ultimate Fake Book w/Over 1200 Songs published by Hal Leonard. It's my go-to book when I want to learn a standard. Best 50 bucks I've ever spent. I also have gotten great finds in used bookstores and thrift shops. Hit songs of various decades, jazz standards, etc. Can be had really cheaply and if you even find ONE song that you want to learn in a book, it's worth the price.
Hey, good luck in your journey through C6 land.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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