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Topic: Sticky Kluson tuners on push-pull |
Andrew Roblin
From:
Various places
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Posted 28 Sep 2018 3:06 am |
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Hi...
I have my first push-pull, and the Kluson tuners are very, very hard to turn.
What's the best way to get these Klusons working smoothly?
Thank you. |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 28 Sep 2018 3:27 am
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Just went through the same thing with a recently purchased PP.
Lynn Stafford seemed to think that the grease inside the tuners gets hard which it what causes them to be difficult to turn.
His possible solution was to soak them in Kerosene and see if that loosens the dirt. Otherwise Gotoh makes an great replacement tuner which looks identical to the Klusons.
Push Pulls are an interesting machine to say the least!!!
regards,
_________________
Mark T
Rittenberry Laquer D10, Rittenberry Prestige SD10, Revelation Preamp,Revelation Octal Preamp,Lexicon PCM 92 Reverb, Furlong Cabinet |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2018 3:42 am
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I've had good luck rehabbing vintage Klusons by flushing them with naptha and re-lubing.
First, remove them from the instrument and soak overnight in naptha. I use a small disposable plastic tray that comes in many microwave dinners. Dispose of the dirty naptha.
Then, using a small disposable plastic pipette, repeatedly inject fresh naptha through the small hole on the gear cover stamping until it runs as clear as you can get it -- it'll take a while.
Next, after the naptha evaporates, fill the cavity through the same hole with white lithium grease until nearly overflowing. Finally, turn the button dozens and dozens of times with a string winder.
Naptha is available at hardware stores in quart cans, or as lighter fluid (Ronsonol) at your local tobacco counter. I use LaBelle white lithium lube that is sold at hobby shops for lubricating model trains. Good luck! |
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Andrew Roblin
From:
Various places
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Posted 30 Sep 2018 2:09 pm
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| Thank you, Mark and Jack. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2018 4:01 pm
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Please use naphtha - not kerosene! Kerosene is a "dirty" solvent that leaves contaminants behind. It can cause a hard amber "glaze" to form that will eventually flush out (at least enough to no longer cause a problem) with naphtha.
Kerosene is OK for flushing engine parts that will be oiled but NOT for anything on a guitar. Ronson lighter fluid, btw, is naphtha with a small amount of deodorizer and a colorant. The squeeze bottles are handy and most instrument techs I know keep a bottle on their bench.
Naphtha , along with movement of the tuning mechanism (without strings, will eventually flush the gunk out, and naphtha is harmless to plastics and finishes. Still, the oily stuff that flushes out should be wiped off immediately.
Once the keys are flushed and moving freely lube them only with DRY Teflon (PTFE) lubricant. It's become the preferred tuner lube over the last 10 years or so because unlike oil, it does not break down, and does not attract girt, dust and hair.
ALL oils are dirt magnets. They also break down chemically, thicken, and become sticky over time. I don't recommend them for changers or other parts of mechanisms either for the same reason. I was a die-hard low-viscosity sewing machine oil user for years, but once I'd field tested dry teflon on pedal steels and 6-strings for a few years I never used anything else.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2018 6:09 pm Naphtha
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Well, I stand corrected! Thank you to Jack and to Jim for your comments about naphtha vs. kerosene. I was once told by the folks at Sperzel that kerosene could be used to break down the hardened grease inside their tuning machines but I now know that Naphtha would be a much better choice.
_________________
Best regards,
Lynn Stafford
STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)
Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)
ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 12:01 pm
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To dissolve the grease/oil/grime, has anyone ever tried that "Purple Power" stuff like you buy at auto supply stores?
It sure works on engines and bicycle chains. ;>))
Note: I am just asking a question that someone else is probably thinking.
I'm not arguing against Naptha or anything else.
I'm merely trying to find out if there are any pros/cons to using something else that maybe hasn't been tried. |
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Cartwright Thompson
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Dave Campbell
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 3 Oct 2018 1:34 am
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| not meaning to hijack, but are there any solutions to kluxons that have developed the opposite problem? mine have developed a sloppy looseness that make tuning a little less than ideal. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 3 Oct 2018 2:05 am
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Seeing that these direct Kluson tuners are still available, why not grab a new set ? BEST CASE scenario is that they are just shy of 30 years old. Even if we loosen them up, we may find that they are not stable.
The reason we are trying to repair the hard to turn Sperzels with Naptha or Kerosene is that those direct replacement tuners are not available anymore, PER Sperzel. And yes, they said Kerosene.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Indiana, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2018 12:53 am
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| I get all the posts about freeing up stubborn Kluson gears but don’t forget about the other friction point no one talks about. That is, the keyhead peg-hole. It can get gummed up just like any other part. Remember the basic thing that’s happening. The string is pulling the key’s shaft against the keyhole with a huge amount of force. Friction. If the key is loose in the peg head or mounted such that it isn’t centered then, for sure, it’s not going to turn freely. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 6 Oct 2018 5:06 pm
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I just took a '55 Stringmaster Quad apart for cleaning/fixing, including removing all four tuning pans and taking off all 8 sets of 4-tuner Kluson strips. These have the same basic tuner-body as old push-pull, as well as old Tele/Strat/Jazz/Jag tuners and many old Gibson tuners, and many turned pretty hard, as they are wont to do after 40-60 years. I flushed them all with naptha, and then in the oiling hole, first put a tiny drop of machine oil. Then with the narrow plastic applicator, I squeezed in some Tri-Flow "Superior Lubricant" in the 2 oz. bottle. I only suggest this version of Tri-Flow, the others have gummed up anything I touched them with - this variant has teflon suspended in a solvent that evaporates, leaving just the teflon. I find a tiny amount of high-quality machine oil helps distribute and hold the teflon in place in the gearbox, but I use only a small amount of the oil.
This has been my process for dealing with old Klusons tuners for a long time, done a lot of old 6-strings over the years. The tuners on this Stringmaster turn a lot better now, but are never gonna be great. Sometimes I get old Klusons that are so bad that I just replace the whole set with reissues and toss the originals in the case in case I ever sell.
| Quote: |
| I get all the posts about freeing up stubborn Kluson gears but don’t forget about the other friction point no one talks about. That is, the keyhead peg-hole. It can get gummed up just like any other part. Remember the basic thing that’s happening. The string is pulling the key’s shaft against the keyhole with a huge amount of force. Friction. If the key is loose in the peg head or mounted such that it isn’t centered then, for sure, it’s not going to turn freely. |
Definitely! Pulling each tuner strip out, cleaning the oxidation off everything, and lubing the friction points is also critical. I actually used some De-Oxit D5 to get some of the hard oxidation off the tuning pans and tuner stems when the naptha didn't quite get it. Not exactly the intended use for De-Oxit, but it did work pretty well.
The tuners that are the biggest problem are the lollipop tuners in the earlier Custom/Professional console steels. Those things are just a problem waiting to happen.
On white lithium grease - I definitely find that it hardens with time. The good part is that it stays put, but I've always had to go in and clean it out again after several years. YMMV, but that's mine. |
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Andrew Roblin
From:
Various places
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Posted 6 Oct 2018 5:29 pm
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You've given me a lot of good ideas, advice and experience, guys.
Thank you for helping me out. |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2018 9:52 pm
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| ... I squeezed in some Tri-Flow "Superior Lubricant" in the 2 oz. bottle. I only suggest this version of Tri-Flow, the others have gummed up anything I touched them with - this variant has teflon suspended in a solvent that evaporates, leaving just the teflon... |
I completely agree, Dave. The version of Tri-Flow marked as "Dry" is usually found in bicycle shops where the paraffin that is added to the Tri-Flow is perfect for protecting bike chains from rain and mud--but will seriously gum up PSG roller-nuts and other precision parts.
OTOH, the original version of Tri-Flow "Superior Lubricant", found in most hardware stores, leaves a dry film of teflon--and is excellent for pedal steels.
-Dave |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2018 5:50 pm
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Contains a significant quantity of a chemical solvent used in lacquer and paint removers. It's marketed as a Multi surface cleaner-degreaser"
After decades in the paint and coatings business and even longer in instrument finishing I do not recommend any "degreasers" be used not just on, but anywhere *near* guitars.
some are perfectly safe, but the problem is determining which ones. MSDS sheets only have to disclose components hazardous to human health - something that hoses your formica or lacquer (or plastic bushings etc) may not be apparent until you use the product and wreck plastic or finished parts or melt adhesives.
That product clearly has a component that *may* damage finishes or plastic/synthetic polymer parts. Don't use it.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Andrew Roblin
From:
Various places
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Posted 10 Oct 2018 3:13 am
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I took off one of the stickiest tuners. Soaked it in naptha, periodically turning it, for a few hours.
Lubed, lubed, lubed with 3-in-1. Let it sit overnight.
Zero improvement.
Conclusion: Worn mechanism.
Are the Gotoh replacements smooth? |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2018 7:15 am
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| Andrew Roblin wrote: |
| Are the Gotoh replacements smooth? |
Gotohs are highly regarded. They're very smooth. I've used Gotoh replicas of the old Kluson Deluxe tuners on virtually all of my Gibson and Kalamazoo rescue lap steels. In my opinion, they're far superior to both the original and the reproduction Klusons.
The only caveat would be whether or not the shaft is the same size and would fit the Emmons peghead. Someone here will likely know the answer. |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Indiana, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 10:08 am
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The shafts on Gotoh replacement tuners are the same size as original Klusons. I've used them a bunch of times when replacing old, worn out originals.
Sometimes the the two mounting holes on Gotoh tuners' housing might not line up with the holes in the keyhead. They might be off by an incredibly small amount. Again, sometimes. When that occurs, I enlarge the holes on the tuners a tiny, tiny fraction and they fit. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 12:47 pm
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Most of us in the guitar tech world feel Tonepros make the best Kluson reproduction tuners.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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