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Topic: Tuning with a meter |
Earl Terry
From:
norwalk Iowa, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 3:42 am |
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| When is the best time when setting the note with a meter At the initial strike or mid-time after striking the string. Example if speed picking right away. Ballad 3-5 seconds? I know probably dumb question. Or is this a Pro's secret? |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 4:52 am
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Good question. My thought is to tune to the initial strike, no matter what type of music you're playing. The note gets a little flat as it decays, but the brain (both yours and the listener's) registers the initial pitch and remembers it. With speed picking, the notes will be right on, and with the slow ballads, you can use the bar to correct as the note decays.
I find that a 12th fret harmonic holds the true note a little better than an open string. When I use open strings for tuning, I pick them rapidly in a staccato pattern so they don't have a chance to decay. It seems to work for me, but I'll be interested to hear how other players approach this. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 5:58 am
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I always let the string, and meter, settle at the sustained note, and check/recheck for open and for 12th fret harmonics. This means I pretty much ignore the attack-pitch while tuning up.
I "operate" the bar by ear anyway – always have, and as long as the strings are reasonable well in tune with each other the few cents "pitch-correction" that may or may not be needed takes place without me thinking about it. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 6:26 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| I always let the string, and meter, settle at the sustained note, and check/recheck for open and for 12th fret harmonics. This means I pretty much ignore the attack-pitch while tuning up. |
Me too! The sharping of the initial attack goes by way too fast, and it also changes with your dynamics, so it wouldn't be good to use it as a baseline for tuning.
You tune exactly the same for fast playing or slow playing, and you'll notice anything that's "out" far more on the slow songs. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 7:14 am
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I never check my tuning when I first sit down at my steel. I run through a few songs and then check it.
You need to warm up the strings. 
Erv |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 8:03 am
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I also tune when the metered note stabilizes after picking the string. It's true that the ear zones in the originally picked note, but that note slowly goes flat as it sustains. After the listener hears the initial attack, they hear the slightly flatter note as it settles in. But, I'm not totally convinced that a listener without perfect pitch would really notice a couple of cents difference.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 8:50 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I never check my tuning when I first sit down at my steel. I run through a few songs and then check it.
You need to warm up the strings.
Erv |
I do that too, Erv. And another “tune the sustained pitch†camper here. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 9:00 am
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I've read that Buddy Emmons carried a hair dryer with him so he could warm up his guitar, when it was cold, before he started playing.
No doubt, for tuning purposes.
Erv |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 3:45 pm
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I've read that Buddy Emmons carried a hair dryer with him so he could warm up his guitar, when it was cold, before he started playing.
No doubt, for tuning purposes.
Erv |
Plus, he always wanted his hair to look nice. 
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 5:41 pm
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I've read that Buddy Emmons carried a hair dryer with him so he could warm up his guitar, when it was cold, before he started playing.
No doubt, for tuning purposes. |
Nope, it just made all them "hot licks" easier. |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 9:25 pm
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I've read that Buddy Emmons carried a hair dryer with him so he could warm up his guitar, when it was cold, before he started playing.
No doubt, for tuning purposes.
Erv |
Was the hair dryer black?
Inquiring minds want to know.
- Dave |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 2 Oct 2018 11:30 pm
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What Erv said!
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Oct 2018 10:03 am
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I don't tune my steel when I arrive at my weekly gig. I arrive early and it's up to room temperature by the time I have to play anything serious. I check it before I pack it up and it's good for another week!
I don't know where this idea comes from that a string goes flat as it decays. Its pitch is determined by its length and tension (and the density and viscosity of the air) none of which change during the sort of time period we're talking about. When you pick the string you tighten it momentarily, but after that instant there is no further change.
Now it's possible that the upper partials decay more quickly than the fundamental, and that the progressive dulling of the tone might be interpreted subjectively as a fall in pitch, but it's an illusion.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2018 10:37 am
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When you pick a string, notice your meter.
It will register sharp until the string as a chance to settle down.
That's the way its worked for me the last 50 years but then what do I know? 
Erv |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Oct 2018 1:26 pm
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There is a degree of latency in the tuner and it can't begin to compute the pitch till it's stable. Anyway, what's the rush? I think we're agreed that you get the right answer in the end 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 3 Oct 2018 1:48 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| When you pick the string you tighten it momentarily, but after that instant there is no further change. |
Tension in a string gets measureable higher the wider it swings, which means it pitches higher at the moment of attack and then eases off. The audible, and measureable, pitch-rise lasts for only a few "swings", which makes it easiest to hear, and measure, with agressive picking on low strings.
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Now it's possible that the upper partials decay more quickly than the fundamental, and that the progressive dulling of the tone might be interpreted subjectively as a fall in pitch, but it's an illusion. |
Not quite an illusion, as the swing by partials gets added to the fundamental, increasing initial tension-rise a little extra and make it "wobble" a tiny bit as partials do not stay in perfect sync with fundamental for long.
What is an illusion is that the louder the sound the higher our ears/senses perceive the pitch, and with this (more or less) real illusion added the attack pitch rise tends to sound even more pronounced to us. Tuning meters are of course less "impressed" by that illusion.
Anyway, all these "initially higher pitch" variables are better ignored while tuning up, as there is nothing to gain by getting hung up in them. Either one sounds in pitch while playing, or one doesn't. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 4 Oct 2018 4:42 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| Either one sounds in pitch while playing, or one doesn't. |
and how one tunes initially is only part of it.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Earl Terry
From:
norwalk Iowa, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2018 5:09 am
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| BoB do you have a suggestion? |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 4 Oct 2018 5:41 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| Either one sounds in pitch while playing, or one doesn't. |
and how one tunes initially is only part of it. |
Exactly!
Easiest thing in the world to make the most well-tuned PSG sound out of tune
Aside: although I over the years have used both dedicated tuners and "proper" high-resolution frequency counters for checking how I have tuned various instruments, 99% of the time I (still) rely entirely on ear and a tuning-fork (in "A"), or the "center pitch" in bands (whatever that happens to be), for tuning up. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 4 Oct 2018 7:13 am
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I tune to A=440, and because I tune in natural intervals E becomes 330, slightly sharper than the 329.6 that guitarists tune to. I seldom use any open strings anyway, but if I do safely sharp is better than deathly flat.
In normal playing a band would have to be in a really weird pitch before I would considered retuning.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2018 8:37 am
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| Earl Terry wrote: |
| BoB do you have a suggestion? |
Assuming you meant me... 
I don't think it's all that critical. Most guitars have 2 or 3 cents hysteresis anyway, and they sound fine. I bounce on the string's most-used pedal or lever as I tune a string. I tune the sustained note. I let hysteresis happen on the less-used pedal or lever, on the theory that it's just temporary.
Sustain is where you hear out-of-tuneness. When notes are going by quickly, it's hard to tell if they're in tune or not. And unless you're like 15 cents off or something, it's no big deal. But when you're sustaining a chord, a note that's 5 cents off can sound horrible.
Most musicians can't hear differences of less than 2 cents. Most listeners (non-musicians) don't hear notes as out-of-tune if they're in the general neighborhood of where they should be.
If you use cannabis, you can develop what I call "stoned ear", where everything sounds out of tune. If you drink alcohol, the opposite can occur (and the audience will notice). I advise against both when tuning or performing. 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2018 10:46 am
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| b0b wrote: |
If you use cannabis, you can develop what I call "stoned ear", where everything sounds out of tune. If you drink alcohol, the opposite can occur (and the audience will notice). I advise against both when tuning or performing. |
b0b, none of my heroes, from the sixties clear up to yesterday, were in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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Drew Pierce
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2018 11:59 am
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As to the question posed, there's always a slightly sharp spike at the attack. So the early decay is where I look. And I've also found I get a better signal into most tuners using my bare, un-picked ring finger to pick the string. It's a fatter signal and no pick noises to confuse the tuner.
I always check tuning as soon as I get set up, but if the guitar is pretty evenly a few cents sharp or flat across the board, I won't mess with it until I've played a few songs or even the first set. Invariably, when I've started out raising or lowering every string a few cents at the get-go, I'll end up reversing that process and realize I'd have been better of leaving it alone. If there are any newly replaced strings, they may need individual tweaking and that's to be expected. This has been true on many different guitars, though some more so than others.
_________________
Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2018 6:19 pm
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b0b makes some very good points.
It also depends on what unit you are using. Is it a clamp-on LED unit (or one with a physical needle)? Is it a floor unit with lights, a physical needle - or a strobe (or faux-strobe)?
I'm guessing not a strobe, but some call moving lights "needles" - and virtually every brand and model of tuner will react differently. Clamp-on types re very sensitive as to placement, have to be moved to tune an entire guitar - and positions vary depending on guitar construction.
The output of the pickup and even, in some cases, frequency response - plus pick attack - affect how some work.
The other big question - do you tune "needle up" - meaning at the exact "0" position for each note - or do you use one of the many offsets available for pedal steel? IMO "needle up" tuning doesn't work well in a band situation and rarely sounds in tune with backup tracks.
This is one reason many players use virtual strobes (like the Peterson line) and program it with one of the presets specific to whatever copedent you use. To me it makes a significant difference regardless of guitar brand.
Hope that didn't overy complicate the subject for you -
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Earl Terry
From:
norwalk Iowa, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2018 5:09 am
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| Thank You |
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