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Topic: Why lower 9 to C#. 10 already raises to C# |
Allan Haley
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 16 Sep 2018 12:02 pm |
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Hi steelers. I'm a semi-beginner (5 years in). Don't the 9 lower and 10 raise do the same thing? Why have both?
Thanks
Al |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 16 Sep 2018 12:42 pm
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Often times you want to have the C# on the bottom and a B note on the fifth string. You can't do that unless you lower the 9th to C#.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 16 Sep 2018 3:28 pm
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And if the D is the 7 in an E7 (strings 6.8.9) then it can resolve nicely to A with that lower and the B pedal.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2018 4:15 pm
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Many reasons, one is to get a minor 7th chord. For example on strings 4,5,6 and 9 at fret 3 there is an Em7th chord. If you tried to play this using the 10th string with the A pedal active, you would would also be raising the 5th string and that would interfere with the m7th chord formation.
Many other examples here along with a chart showing the above minor 7th chord:
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/C6th%20On%20E9th/C6th%20On%20E9th.html |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 19 Sep 2018 11:13 am
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I've said this before but, like Allan, I wondered the same thing. That was many years ago, though, and in the late-'80s I was fortunate enough to work with the late great Jimmie Crawford.
One day I was listening to him getting these beautifully rich inversions - major 9ths, major 7ths, add 9ths, etc - and I asked him how he got them. He said 'Lower your 9th string and....'
Me: 'Jimmie - I can't lower my 9th.'
He just said - 'You HAVE to lower the 9th!!!'
He was right. It opens so many doors on E9. Along with lowering the 5th it's my most important knee lever.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 19 Sep 2018 11:43 am
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how about a much simpler answer
because there is a ton of music coming off the 9th string ! It's not a bxxstard child living in it's own world !
comparing 9 and 10, 9 drops a half tone down
10 raises a FULL tone UP
Two worlds collide ! As they should ! 
In simplicity, resolving to the root with the 9 lower then bringing in the 10 raise to the two unison notes is insane. It's just one more reason why we play these crazy instruments ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Allan Haley
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 19 Sep 2018 5:48 pm
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| Thanks for all those ideas. I'm going to spend some time figuring all this out. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Sep 2018 12:14 am
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Another answer to the OP is "because you could" in the old pull-release days when you couldn't raise and lower the same string. 9 didn't raise, so it could be lowered. 6 had the B-pedal raise so couldn't be lowered to F#, but 7 could be raised to G# to give the same change with forethought.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jack Stanton
From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
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Posted 20 Sep 2018 6:12 am
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| In addition to all of the above answers it also serves to help the 2nd string lower half stop. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2018 7:15 am
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For me I like the ergonomics of lowering the 9th to C#, as well as raising 7 to G# at the same time... I think the “Feel” of it is better than when raising 10 to C# and allows the strumming of 9876 with AB pedals down or 9865... I think it’s a more natural grip/strum for me anyhow... Plus going from that lever to the F lever with the same group of strings is pretty seemless
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2018 7:27 am
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| Lower register single note pentatonics from string 10 to 5 over the I and V (with E lower) chords. |
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John Sluszny
From:
Brussels, Belgium
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 20 Sep 2018 10:15 am
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John - that's a perfect illustration of the voicings that are available with lowering the 9th!
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 20 Sep 2018 11:13 am
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That's lovely, Dale!
Is your entire E9 copedant posted anywhere? I'd like to see it.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 20 Sep 2018 11:45 am
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Wow! Food for thought there!
I have never grasped the value of moving the 7th string along with 2 and 9 but you do it and so does Tommy White so greater brains than mine can clearly see its uses.
Are the MSAs triple raise and lower?
Thanks for that, Dale.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2018 11:57 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
Wow! Food for thought there!
I have never grasped the value of moving the 7th string along with 2 and 9 but you do it and so does Tommy White so greater brains than mine can clearly see its uses.
Are the MSAs triple raise and lower?
Thanks for that, Dale. |
They’re 4 Raise 3 Lower Roger... That 7th whole raise is nice when you use the AB pedals with it... It moves the 6th string G# away from the 7th string which is now a G#... I don’t know what chord that makes, but I think it’s pretty 
The whole lower of 9 with the whole lower of 6 with the split from the B pedal is nice too, and you can throw in the E lower with it as well... Again, my Theory sucks, but its pretty
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 21 Sep 2018 4:19 am
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Dale:
Thanks for your response. I thought I'd bought my last steel but my Emmons, as much as I love it, is starting to feel stodgy these days. Pedals and knees require too much effort and I long for a deft and faster-responding mechanism. Those MSAs seem to set the bar in terms of mechanics.
One last '?' - LKLB? 'Backwards', maybe?
I just shared that live clip of Buddy playing 'Shenandoah' over on Facebook! Talk about mastery of suspensions and passing chords! Wow. More '9th string lower' involved there, too.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2018 4:59 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
Dale:
Those MSAs seem to set the bar in terms of mechanics.
One last '?' - LKLB? 'Backwards', maybe?
I just shared that live clip of Buddy playing 'Shenandoah' over on Facebook! Talk about mastery of suspensions and passing chords! Wow. More ‘9th string lower' involved there, too. |
Roger I could be a little partial, but I think you’d really be happy with a new MSA... They’re the most even, balanced guitar I’ve ever played. And some of the MECHANICALLY ADVANCED features you can’t really appreciate until you’ve sat behind one, needing to widen the knee lever spacing or raise a pedal a little that may be too low because you just happen to find yourself on a shag rug.
LKLB= the Left Knee Lever closest to me... I wish there was a STANDARD for what to call that Knee Lever, but I’ve seen several ways to label it, I just chose this one.
I heard your post on FB... Buddy is the MASTER!!!
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 21 Sep 2018 9:05 am
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Not really a standard to my knowledge, but I have seen staggered levers marked as LKLF = left knee left front meaning closest to the front of the guitar, and LKLB towards the back of the guitar.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Kyle Everson
From:
Nashville, Tennessee
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Posted 21 Sep 2018 11:41 am
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| If you lower your 10th string a whole step, the 9th string half lower becomes the third of a nice strummable A6th chord. Also adds a nice 3 to sus4 in the pedals down position by engaging and then releasing the lever. |
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