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Topic: Which C6 copedent should i start with? |
Michell Geerdink
From:
Netherlands
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 1:03 am |
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I have an old MSA Classic. I consider myself a beginner with some experience withe the E9th neck.
When i bought this steel it was missing all sorts of parts.
Now after ordering from Michael Yahl i believe/hope i have all the missing parts.
The E9th neck i have more or less finished but the c6 is a problem for me, i don't know which c6 copedent would be wise for me to install since i have zero experience with this neck.
So this is my question:
Which c6 copedent would be best for a c6 beginner player. Should i, for instance also hooke up some of the levers or maybe not at this stage? That sort of things.
Thanks,
Michell |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 3:19 am
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I would start with Jimmy Day's copedant:
https://b0b.com/tunings/stars.html#C6jd
Except... Do Not raise the first string. That way you can experiment with both having a G or a D as your first string until you have a preference.
As was discussed in a recent thread, this setup has long been considered 'standard'; however, most players now who play a significant amount of C6 have deviated greatly from it. |
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Michell Geerdink
From:
Netherlands
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 6:26 am
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Hi Jeff,
Thank you, that looks like a good starting point.
You know, i ran into a lot of different copedants. I have no idea as to which could be considered as standard. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 7:01 am
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I like that Jimmy Day setup.
I am a huge fan of the string-1 half step raise on P5.
It can also be used as an E9th change on Universals. |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 7:17 am
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I should also have added that the Buddy Emmons C6 copedant listed below Jimmy Day's contains what is probably the most popular deviations... The 'D on top', and the additional knee levers.
I think the first-string raise is pretty common with the G on top, but it doesn't work out with the D because it is the root of the 9th chord that Pedal 5 creates. So... 'G on top', raise it... 'D on top', Don't. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 7:26 am
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Raising the D can be useful. With P6 it changes F6 to F7, and if you are using 5&6 one fret back for a 13th chord it restores the 2nd degree of the scale. I have it on P8 on my uni.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 8:09 am
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| I like the D on top too! (On a Uni, you get to have them both). |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 9:14 am
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| Jeff Harbour wrote: |
| ...'G on top', raise it... 'D on top', Don't. |
Okay... As an amendment to my above statement:
'D on top', Don't raise it on Pedal 5. Anywhere else may be useful. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 9:42 am
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I think Buddy Emmons' C6th is perfect. Everyone else is just experimenting. Buddy nailed it.
Just my opinion...
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 9:45 am
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What b0b says, as usual.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 1:03 pm
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By the way, you must have the 3rd string raise and lower levers. You can add those changes to your existing RKR and RKL. The 4th string levers will probably require extra hardware that you don't have. You can get your feet wet (no pun intended) without them, but you'll feel the need for them eventually.
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_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 2:08 pm
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I love to use LKR+P6 for minor chords (two frets up from open is the 2-minor, etc).
On Uni it's the B-pedal+P6
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 2:32 pm
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| I would put standard C6 pedals 5-8 with D on first string. If you have 2 right knees I'd lower 3 and raise 3. Learning with G on one will just be a habit to later break! Pete, p6 +Bb kl changes major to minor on the same fret, not 2 steps up. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 2:49 pm
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| John Swain wrote: |
| ...Pete, p6 +Bb kl changes major to minor on the same fret, not 2 steps up. |
We are saying the same thing i think.
I said the 2-minor is two frets up from Open with LKR+P6.
Like, if you want to play a Harmonized major scale, the 2 minor it two frets up from Open, with LKR+P6, etc. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 7:45 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
I think Buddy Emmons' C6th is perfect. Everyone else is just experimenting. Buddy nailed it.
Just my opinion... |
Yes, but do you mean the original 5&1, or his later fairly loaded one?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Aug 2018 7:49 pm
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How much depends on what you want to do with it.
One other thing worth noting is that the MSA knee placement allows for both sets of knees to work no necks.
Yes, they'll get a little stiffer, but not unreasonably so.
Unless you like double-footing, I'd put P5 on a knee.
If you're fairly handy, I'd just order some more bellcranks and associated hardware, so you can add pulls to the knees. I'd rather have knees I don't know what to do with than to know how to use a knee I ain't got.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2018 9:11 am
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| b0b wrote: |
I think Buddy Emmons' C6th is perfect. Everyone else is just experimenting. Buddy nailed it.
Just my opinion... |
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Yes, but do you mean the original 5&1, or his later fairly loaded one? |
The one with 4 knee levers pictured above.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Michell Geerdink
From:
Netherlands
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Posted 9 Aug 2018 2:57 am
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Thanks guys for all your tips and advises. Lots of info for me to swallow.
With all your help i'm sure eventually i'll make the right choice.
Right now i'm leaning towards the Buddy Emmons copedent. Only concern i have with that might be the possible extra stiffnes of the levers action when adding extra changes. Is this something you'd have to learn to live with?
Michell |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 Aug 2018 3:40 am
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| Michell Geerdink wrote: |
... Is this something you'd have to learn to live with?
Michell |
In the world of the Steel Guitar... Everything is a compromise! It's a clichΓΒ©, but if it works for you, do it. If it doesn't, consider an alternative option. |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 9 Aug 2018 10:21 am
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I've got video of a workshop Buddy Emmons gave sometime in the 80s and he says his 4th pedal raises his E's to F, at least at that time. he says something like, "no one was ever quite sure what to do with pedal 4." made me feel good because I had made that same change on my 4th pedal years before seeing the video and couldn't live without it.
also worth noting that pedal 4 is not included in Buddy's 'Basic C6' course.
as for stiff levers, all 5 levers on my Sierras work both necks and it's never been a problem. but when I added a couple E9 raises to pedal 4, that was too stiff for my liking.
additionally, I also raise my C's to D with LKR which I find very useful. happy hunting!
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 β’ Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 β’ JCH D-10, 10x12 β’ Beard MA-8 β’ Oahu Tonemaster |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 Aug 2018 11:09 am
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| scott murray wrote: |
| I've got video of a workshop Buddy Emmons gave sometime in the 80s and he says his 4th pedal raises his E's to F... |
Don't know what Buddy's specific application with that change was... But, back when Maurice Anderson put that equivalent change on his 12-string Bb6 tuning (D-Eb), it effectively gave him a useable Eb9 tuning allowing him to better reproduce the "Nashville" sound of the time.
A few years later, Jeff Newman 'reversed' the idea, and today's 'E9/B6 Universal' tuning was born. |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 Aug 2018 11:18 am
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| scott murray wrote: |
| ...also worth noting that pedal 4 is not included in Buddy's 'Basic C6' course... |
Ultimately, I too eventually got rid of Pedal 4 (A's to B's). But, for a good while I worked out of Herby Wallace's two C6 books, which used Pedal 4 a great deal. I learned a whole lot from those books!
As a good rule of thumb, always learn how to use a Pedal or Lever before deciding you don't need it. That's why I initially suggested the Jimmy Day 'standard' copedant (...I call it standard only because Winnie's book did...). Admittedly, what I use now bears very little resemblance to that setup. But... I couldn't have used what I have now on day 1, the alterations had to progress with my musical understanding. |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Posted 10 Aug 2018 1:20 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
I think Buddy Emmons' C6th is perfect. Everyone else is just experimenting. Buddy nailed it.
Just my opinion... |
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Yes, but do you mean the original 5&1, or his later fairly loaded one? |
The one with 4 knee levers pictured above. |
That's the setup he was still using, at least on the Zumsteel hybrid.
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Blaine Moore
Last edited by Hook Moore on 11 Aug 2018 1:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 10 Aug 2018 7:49 pm
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I think a basic set up is best at first, 5 pedals and the one knee, C down to B, thatΓ’β¬β’ll get you a long long way without being overloaded, hover your foot over pedals 5&6 as a home base for your left foot.....and with the vintage G string on top its still fun fun fun!
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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