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Topic: Sticky 4th string raise |
Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2018 3:19 pm |
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I bought this raggedy old MSA Pro-Am Sidekick for $500 bucks, and mostly it works pretty well. It's an all pull changer, to which I applied just a tiny drop of 3 in 1 oil between the fingers. Tuned it up, and it seems to mostly be ok. But.
The 4th string, when raised with the C pedal, won't drop back to tune. It stays significantly sharp. I can bump the knee lever to lower it & it returns back up to tune OK.
This is a consistent failure. Every time.
Return spring? Catch in the works? Anybody's best guess?
I can see where the raise lever moves - the way this guitar is built quite a bit of the changer's movement is visible.
I'm guessing this guitar has spent a lot of its life just sitting, not being played. Most of the pedals were a quarter step or more out of tune - you couldn't even pretend to make music the way it was. But it tuned up OK with some patience.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Edward Rhea
From:
Medford Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2018 3:40 pm
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Jeffrey, my best guess is that the roller on your keyhead is probably sticking...try loosening the string and dropping a bit of oil on the roller axle and turning it by hand, before returning the string back to pitch. Best to ya!
_________________
“TONESNOB†|
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 2 Jul 2018 4:23 pm
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Sounds like the return-spring is way too tight, or the raise-scissor is catching or hanging because of high friction on its way back to neutral.
FWIW: staying sharp after a raise can not be caused by sticky nut-rollers, as they would cause it to go flat of neutral. |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick
From:
Clinton, Missouri USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2018 5:23 pm Sticking 4th string
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Make sure and lubricate the rivets of all the changer fingers. This is Critical, especially on fingers with two
rivets Sho-Bud, Williams and some others. Look up Greg Cutshaw. He has a great tutorial on Lubing steels. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 2 Jul 2018 5:32 pm
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Most people say don't use Three in One oil on a pedal steel. It tends to attract dirt. Remington gun oil with teflon works well. There have been prior threads regarding what lubricant is best.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2018 7:52 pm
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| Most people say don't use Three in One oil on a pedal steel. It tends to attract dirt. Remington gun oil with teflon works well. There have been prior threads regarding what lubricant is best. |
When I used to hang out on a Russian motorcycle board, they had a whole separate index topic for oil threads. Yes, lubricants are a topic of much interest. I'm going with, the 3 in 1 didn't do this. 
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2018 7:58 pm
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
Sounds like the return-spring is way too tight, or the raise-scissor is catching or hanging because of high friction on its way back to neutral.
FWIW: staying sharp after a raise can not be caused by sticky nut-rollers, as they would cause it to go flat of neutral. |
I'll bet it's catching on the raise scissor - it's always at exactly the same sharp note. Seems like a spring would vary. And I can just tap the lower lever with my knee and it's back in tune. I play with my tuner on...
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 2 Jul 2018 11:27 pm
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| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
| I'll bet it's catching on the raise scissor - it's always at exactly the same sharp note. Seems like a spring would vary. And I can just tap the lower lever with my knee and it's back in tune. I play with my tuner on... |
You are probably right. Turn the steel upside-down, push the scissors open (raise, and then lower) and look for wear-marks and gunk on them. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 3 Jul 2018 12:15 am
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this is an instrument, mechanically, which is +/- 45 years old. Take it apart and clean it.
Always start with backing off each of the 4th string pulls to zero. Whatever is on the Steel, student or pro.
Adjust the 4th string pulls one at a time, starting with the C Pedal.
With no rods in the changer for the 4th string, push the changer end with your finger, does it return to the natural note ?
Adding new lube on top of old lube is not a valid solution. All lubes are not compatible. Some lubes may just sit on TOP of the existing lube.
Before you start fixing it you have to know whats causing the issue.
It's a +/- 45 year old Instrument, it needs some attention.
Just for old times sake, heres a few photo's of a 22 year old changer that had been lubed to death due to limited pull/return action. The axle was basically frozen from the gunk build up. There was only ONE way to fix this.
Go ahead, ask me how this 1995 Legrande II plays now.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2018 7:25 am
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Tony, I'd been hoping to not live your picture series with this guitar, but I won't be surprised if it's in my future. 
I'm probably going to replace all the worn-out cheap tuners with Grover Vintage Deluxe, so it would go right with the deal.
Because... Like you said - it's a +/- 50 year old machine. 
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Jul 2018 11:54 am
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Always...step number one, the first thing to verify is that the fingers are returning firmly to the stop-bar!
Turn the (fully assembled) guitar on it's side, with the tuning key endplate down, and look at what's going on underneath while you work the pedals and levers.
Nine times out of ten, you can see where the problem is originating. |
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2018 2:27 pm Tony ;
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| How long did it take to disassemble and reassemble the steel? Not counting the cleaning |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2018 7:56 pm Fixed.
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I just took Tony's advice. Pulled out the changer, took it apart, cleaned it, very lightly lubricated it, put everything back together, new strings...
Poof! As if by magic...
The things we do for love.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 3 Jul 2018 11:17 pm Re: Tony ;
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| Greg Lambert wrote: |
| How long did it take to disassemble and reassemble the steel? Not counting the cleaning |
Greg, I took my time, probably 10 hours for the entire process from removing strings to putting on new strings . The changer cleaning took maybe 2 hours at best, working slowly. Each finger was also inspected to be certain the scissors moved freely . I don't think I was watching the clock, I suspect I could have shaved an hour or two for the whole process if I needed to get it "back on the road" asap.
Certainly this is an "over the weekend" project. While the guitar was apart I also cleaned,inspected and tightened all bell cranks and cross shafts. I also cleaned all the rods as well.
It was my 95 Emmons Legrande II, I did both changers, but not at the same time, maybe a month apart.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Last edited by Tony Prior on 3 Jul 2018 11:29 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 3 Jul 2018 11:19 pm Re: Fixed.
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| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
I just took Tony's advice. Pulled out the changer, took it apart, cleaned it, very lightly lubricated it, put everything back together, new strings...
Poof! As if by magic...
The things we do for love. |
excellent Jeffrey ! as they say
You are now trained !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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