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Post new topic Harmonized scale 7th chords
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Author Topic:  Harmonized scale 7th chords
Dennis Montgomery


From:
Western Washington
Post Posted 20 Jun 2018 5:23 pm     Reply with quote

Hi all, I'm just finding my way with E9 and noticed there are many examples of how to smoothly play a harmonized scale with triads vertically on a single fret or horizontally up the neck. What I'm looking for is how to do the same thing with a harmonized 7th chord scale (CMaj7, Dm7, Em7, FMaj7, G7, Am7, Bdim7).

I can cherry pick the right 7th chords, but they don't flow as well as the available examples harmonizing the triads. Could someone point me to a youtube vid or some tab demonstrating this? I've looked and can't locate anything.

Thanks Wink
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 20 Jun 2018 7:25 pm     Reply with quote

It can’t be done, at least with standard 3P/4L. You get the 1M7, 2m7, 3m7, and V7 at the no pedals home fret. The 4M7 is 5 frets up. With AB down, you don’t even have a M7 to start from.

You might find it more interesting and maybe even easier trying to move vertically on the fretboard with 7th chord scales.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, Northern California
Post Posted 20 Jun 2018 8:58 pm     Reply with quote

There are lots of ways to do it but the grips are harder on E9th than on C6th. Here are a couple:
Tab:

   GM7   Am7   Bm7   CM7   D7   Em7  F#m7b5  GM7
1_____________________________________10_____10G#__
2____________________8____10D_________10D__________
3__________________________________________________
4________3_____5________________10___________10____
5___5A___3A____5A____8____10____10A___10_____10A___
6___5B___3B____5B____8____10____10B___10_____10B___
7___5____3_____5________________10_________________
8____________________8____10_______________________
9___5______________________________________________
10_________________________________________________

    CM7  Dm7  Em7  FM7  G7  Am7  Bm7b5  CM7
1_________________________________________________
2_________________________________________________
3_________________________________________________
4________________________________________________
5___1X___1____3____3A___6____8____10____10A_______
6________1____3____3B___6____8__________10B_______
7___1______________3______________10G___10________
8___1E___1____3_________6F___8____10______________
9________1D___3D___3____6D___8D___10D___10________
10__1_____________________________________________


On C6th, U-12 or my hybrid D6th, all of those notes are on the same 4 strings.
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-b0b- (SGF Admin) Bobby Lee ♪ @b0bleeCopedentsRecordings
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 20 Jun 2018 9:12 pm     Reply with quote

Yes, b0b, but there is no way to do it on E9 at one fret or with the same grips up and down the neck like you can with triads, or like you can do on your D6. That’s what I thought Dennis was getting at.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, Northern California
Post Posted 20 Jun 2018 10:59 pm     Reply with quote

Correct. It's almost possible on one fret, but you need 3 knees levers at once for the iii chord and the grips are horrible.
Tab:

   DM7  Em7 F#m7  GM7  A7  Bm7 C#m7b5 
1___________________________3__________
2____________3DD__3____3DD__3___3DD____
3_______________________________3______
4______________________3________3______
5__3X___3____3X___3____3X___3___3X_____
6_______3_________3_________3__________
7__3_________3_________3_______________
8__3E___3____3E___3____________________
9_______3D_____________________________
10_3___________________________________

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-b0b- (SGF Admin) Bobby Lee ♪ @b0bleeCopedentsRecordings
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Dennis Montgomery


From:
Western Washington
Post Posted 21 Jun 2018 7:35 am     Reply with quote

Fred is correct, I was looking for a way to do this on a single fret or with minimal grip changes.

bOb, you mentioned doing this on C6/Uni-12/your hybrid D6 on a single grip, could you please show me the tab to make those happen?

Thanks!
Dennis
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, Northern California
Post Posted 21 Jun 2018 7:55 am     Reply with quote

Tab:

C6th

   CM7  Dm7  Em7  FM7  G7  Am7  Bm7b5  CM7
D___________________________________________
E___________________________________________
C___________________________________________
A__0)7__2)R__4)R__5)7__7)R__9)R__10)7__12)7_
G__0____2____4____5____7____9____10____12___
E__0____2)6__4)6__5____7____9)6__10____12___
C__0____2____4____5____7____9____10)8__12___
A___________________________________________
F___________________________________________
C___________________________________________
 

R lever raises A to Bb, or you could half-pedal 7 like they did in the old days. Some people (myself included) have a split on a lever that lowers A to Ab, used with pedal 7 to get a 9th chord. In that case, you could keep P7 engaged for the whole run.

The B half diminished is also available at the 11th fret (P5+P6+R). Either way you have to move your foot.

On my hybrid D6th, I have the 4th string raise on RKR with a half-stop. I often use that instead of P7 (my P5), avoiding the foot position movement. That RKR also gives me the standard E9th 2nd string half-stop changes. Mr. Green
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Dennis Montgomery


From:
Western Washington
Post Posted 21 Jun 2018 9:25 am     Reply with quote

Thanks bOb, as always you're a great resource Wink
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 7 Jul 2018 8:48 pm     Reply with quote

I had an epiphany of sorts last week, thinking about this thread. Everyone knows the maj7, dom7, and half-diminished grip on strings 8-6-5-2. What I didn’t know was how the half-A pedal technique from the Winnie book could be applied to something other than an aug triad or minor triad with B pedal.

Try this:
String..........Fret
2................0
5................0 (1/2 A)
6................0
8................0 (F)

The notes are F-Ab-C-Eb, or Fm7. This m7 provides a way to slide between a m7 and all the other 7th chords on these strings without changing grip.

Try this one too:
String..........Fret
1................0 (G)
2................0
5................0 (1/2 A)
6................0
The notes are Ab-C-Eb-G, or Abmaj7. Lose the G lever and you have Ab7. The m7 and m7b5 are already common to this grip, so again the half-A pedal provides the route to a full 7th chord scale all on the same 4 strings.

While this is certainly not my own discovery, I am pretty excited about finding it and thought it was worth a share here. I have not aced the half-A pedal move by a long shot. But it is now something I am putting in the bag of tricks and taking to the woodshed.
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John Goux


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 8 Jul 2018 1:01 am     Reply with quote

Nice work, Fred. I had not thought of these. Do you use 3 finger picks strike all 4 notes together?
I do use the 8-6-5-2 grip, and with the G# to G lowers on 6 and 3 it is very easy to play the 7th chords up the scale using that and the Str 2 lower. The D#mi7b5 is the stickler as my B to Bb lower is on the same knee.
John
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Ron Pruter


From:
Arizona, USA
Post Posted 8 Jul 2018 11:50 am     Reply with quote

Epiphanies would be a great new category for the forum. I too have had them. Some are real forehead slappers. "Why didn't I think of that, or why of course"
One of my first was finding a great min.6th...
Example would be, your A/B down @ fret 3 ; now slide up to fret 4th fret with just your F lever. It goes from C to a nice Cm6. This works great for the 4th bar of Desperado. Throw in the second string for the last note of that melody. RP
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 8 Jul 2018 12:29 pm     Reply with quote

John Goux wrote:
Do you use 3 finger picks strike all 4 notes together?

I am T+2, John. I either do two separate 3-string grips, or play each note individually and let them ring, or just grab string 2 with a bare finger.

Is your B>Bb on a vertical lever? That is the one change I find myself lusting for, so far anyway.

I like the idea of an Epiphanies section, Ron. Maybe it could be a sticky in the Pedal Steel section Cool
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Jeremiah Wade


From:
Bladenboro, NC
Post Posted 11 Jul 2018 5:33 pm     Reply with quote

Diatonic 7ths E9th Key of G
Tab:

4...........3.....5.................10....12....
5.....5++...3++...5++...10++..12+...10++..12+...17++
6.....5+....3+....5+....10+...12+...10+...12+...17+
7.....5.....3.....5.....10....12....10....12....17
8...............................................
9.....5.................10....12................17
    Gmaj7 A-7   B-7    Cmaj7  D7    Em7 F#m7b5  Gmaj7



This uses A and B pedals and the B to Bb lever. You can 1/2 pedal A if your guitar will not split with A abd Bb

Edit: This looks fine when I preview the post but wonky after posting

Note: You need to surround tab with the [tab] and [/tab] BBCodes for it to line up right. -b0b-
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Jeremiah Wade


From:
Bladenboro, NC
Post Posted 12 Jul 2018 2:58 pm     Reply with quote

Thanks Bob!
The B to Bb lower in combination with AB E to Eb lower also provides a full diminished chord that is actually in tune to my ears. I tune my E to F lever to sound best in combination with my A pedal. The diminished 7th chord found with the F lever sound out of tune to me.
Although it has many other good functions, these are the two reasons I find this lever a priority on my setup.
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 12 Jul 2018 4:17 pm     Reply with quote

Jeremiah Wade wrote:
The diminished 7th chord found with the F lever sound out of tune to me.

You should hear some of my half-A pedal minor 7ths - Whoa!
But sliding accurately into them from a maj7 is a sublime experience for me Cool
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Jeremiah Wade


From:
Bladenboro, NC
Post Posted 14 Jul 2018 11:56 am     Reply with quote

Here's Diatonic 7th's on the same strings using A, B, B to Bb lever, E to d# lever, and F# to G to G# lever
Tab:

1..3++..6...8...8++..10+...13...14+...15++...........
2....................................................
3....................................................
4..3....6-..8-..8....10....13-..14-...15.............
5..3++..6...8...8++..10++..13...14+...15++...........
6..3+...6...8...8+...10+...13...14+...15+............
7..*.................................................
8..*.................................................
9....................................................
10.*.................................................
Pedals ABG# D# D# ABG# ABG D#  AVBG ABG#

Key of C 1maj7 2-7 3-7 4maj7 5dom7 6-7 7m7b5 1maj7
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Last edited by Jeremiah Wade on 14 Jul 2018 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 14 Jul 2018 1:36 pm     Reply with quote

Wow! Good job, Jeremiah. So much for “it can’t be done on E9”...

I don’t have two of those changes on my guitar, so I was just working with what I had. I doubt if I could have figured out your version of the scale even if I did have them... but hey, whatever it takes to open up the harmonic possibilities, right?

Question for you - It appears that you have a half-stop on your F#>G# lever. If so, does the half stop keep the D# from raising halfway to E?

I would sure like a half stop on my A pedal. You mentioned that your Bb lever works to split the A. If it were possible to combine the E raise and the A split with Bb lever, that would work on the 2 scales with the changes I described. My E-raise half diminished chord sounds fine to me Cool
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John Goux


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 15 Jul 2018 12:40 pm     Reply with quote

Jeremiah, great job.
That 7th degree Bm7b5 requires me to half pedal the A, because my B to Bb and E lower is on the same knee, opposite side.
It can be done but pretty difficult for me.

As an alternative, here are some Bm7b5 grips that are on convenient frets to your layout and require a minimum of string changes, in some cases just moving one finger over for that chord. One is at the same fret 15 with the pedals down major 7th.

Cheers, John



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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 17 Jul 2018 9:29 am     Reply with quote

Fred Treece wrote:
Question for you - It appears that you have a half-stop on your F#>G# lever. If so, does the half stop keep the D# from raising halfway to E?

That question was for Jeremiah, but if anyone else knows the answer please feel free. Some questions just end up unanswered in the dustbin of history.... Laughing
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, Northern California
Post Posted 17 Jul 2018 10:16 am     Reply with quote

Typically the half-stop is timed to be the point where D# starts raising. Before the half-stop, it acts like the old F# Arrow G lever.
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 17 Jul 2018 2:47 pm     Reply with quote

Thanks, b0b.
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Jeremiah Wade


From:
Bladenboro, NC
Post Posted 18 Aug 2018 6:12 pm     Reply with quote

Yes Fred. There is a feel stop created by timing the raise starting point. John nice half-dims thanks!
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