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Author Topic:  Help - C Pedal Pull Timing
Dan Robinson


From:
Colorado, USA
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2018 6:34 pm    
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I'm learning how to time the pulls on my Carter. Result on A and B pedals was magnificent. It made a huge difference:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=329854

Naturally I can't ignore the C pedal, right? Yep. And it is badly mistimed. String 4 starts raising much sooner than Str.5.

I'll refer to the bell cranks and changer positions like this:
Bell cranks have 5 slots, #1 at the top, nearest to the cross shaft.
The changer raise finger has 4 holes, #1 at the top, nearest to the changer axle.

String 4 pull rod is in bell crank slot #1, and raise hole #4. String 5 rod on crank slot #2, raise hole #1.

String 4 is going almost a half-tone sharp before string 5 begins changing.

The string 5 bell crank has 3 more slots, but other rods are in the way. I'm worried about screwing up something by overlooking some other factor.

I mic'ed the strings with a dial caliper, and they look right. String 4 is .014, string 5 is .017.

Ideas anyone?
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James Collett

 

From:
San Dimas, CA
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2018 9:03 pm    
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You either need less travel on string 4 or more on string 5. It sounds like there needs to be less slack in the string 5 pull, so to compensate for tightening the pull rod you'll need to drop the rod down to the first hole on the bell crank. You could also accomplish a similar goal by dropping the rod down a hole (away from changer) on the 5th string, or moving the 4th string raise towards the changer a slot or two. Looks like you have the 4th string set for maximum travel (assuming my brain is picturing your hole # conventions properly). Because the higher gauge strings typically take more travel to raise, you might want to first move the 4th string raise towards the changer more (stiffer pull, less travel), and see if that gets you closer. In my (very limited) experience, the B and C pedals seem to be the two trickiest to time well... good luck!
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Jeffrey McFadden


From:
Missouri, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 5:23 am    
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Just watching this one. The "other rods in the way" issue befuddles me too.
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Tim Herman


From:
Alberta, Canada
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 7:15 am    
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Here's how I have mine.

4th string is in the bottom changer hole (Farthest from the top of the guitar) The dogbone is in the 2nd slot of the bell crank (2nd from the top of the guitar)

5th string is in the middle changer hole The dogbone is in the 1st slot of the bell crank (1st from the top of the guitar)

My changer is 3 up, 3 down
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Dan Robinson


From:
Colorado, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 10:23 am    
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Tim, my 4th string is similar to your's, in #4/bottom changer raise hole, dogbone in the #1 (top) bell crank slot.

String 5, #2 bell-crank slot, #1 (top) changer hole. Seems like that SHOULD be enough, or at least close.

It's crowded on string 5, as you can see at the endplate.


I have Franklin lowers on Pedal 0. The C/5 bell crank has it's own raise rod in slot #2, plus rods to pedal A, pedal 0, and LKV passing going through, beneath it. Moving the C/5 rod down is going to get messy.

A little voice in my head is screaming "stop!" I have a gig next Saturday. Except for the timing of my C pedal, my guitar is playing pretty well.

I'm going to put on new strings. Will have a look in the changer for anything that doesn't belong there. Isn't that why pedal steel players need a "TACTICAL FLASHLIGHT?"
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Tim Herman


From:
Alberta, Canada
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 11:20 am    
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Swap your A pedal raise with your C pedal raise on the 5th string. Use the 5th string setup I mentioned in the last post. My A pedal is set up 3rd hole in changer, 2nd slot in bell crank. The A and B pedal should stay timed...
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Tim Herman


From:
Alberta, Canada
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 11:23 am    
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Later today I'll make a rodding chart for my guitar.
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Tim Herman


From:
Alberta, Canada
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 11:44 am    
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Upon closer inspection of your picture, just move your 5th string rod to the next hole toward the floor. I would bet money that'll work
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Tucker Jackson

 

From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 12:06 pm    
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Have you checked the Carter rodding chart? It times things nicely. Maybe start there and then adjust if necessary.

Note that their numbering system on the bellcranks and changer holes is not consistent, since one numbers from top to bottom, the other from bottom to top. Also, they assume the guitar is upside down when looking at the changer hole scheme (and obviously, the bellcranks too). See here for the legend:
https://www.steelguitar.com/rodding.html


And here is the actual rodding chart:
https://www.steelguitar.com/roddingS10_D10.html

Also note that the chart doesn't seem to show the newer Carter's 6th string 'step down' or 'gear down' (or whatever it's called) -- the extra bellcrank used to make timing easy between stgs 3 and 6. But all the other strings are good.
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Larry Bressington


From:
Nebraska
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 2:17 pm    
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Dan, I’m not sure how important it is to time those pulls, It might be impossible if you have all the other holes used up. How often do you half pedal the C is my question. It would be nice to get them close but because both strings are on the same pedal you might be out of options, just don’t know for sure, I don’t think I’ve ever timed any on mine.
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Dan Robinson


From:
Colorado, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 2:51 pm    
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Tim Herman wrote:
Upon closer inspection of your picture, just move your 5th string rod to the next hole toward the floor. I would bet money that'll work


It did. Thanks, Tim.



To do that I had to get that rod to the other side of the rods that pass through the bell crank. In the process I changed the positions of both strings 4 and 5 on the bell crank and at the changer.

I removed the string 10 lower from my Franklin pedal. I didn't use that in my playing, and now P0 is easier to operate.

Larry, I'm inclined to agree with you. Matching the timing of strings 4 & 5 on pedal C is very difficult. They are not perfectly matched now, but they are a lot closer.

Tucker, thank you for those excellent references I will study those. The time will come that I'll need to take everything apart and clean the changer. I don't work on cars anymore, but my hands look just like they did when I used to do that. Lots of black grease. This is not the kind of project you want to do over your living room carpet.

Thanks also to Richard Sinkler who warned in an earlier post not to pull the threaded end of the rod through bell cranks.

She's all cleaned up and put back together, and has new strings. I'm going to take it back upstairs to my music room and do some preparation for next Saturday. This was a great learning experience!!


Last edited by Dan Robinson on 14 Apr 2018 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Larry Bressington


From:
Nebraska
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 3:35 pm    
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Good man Dan, glad you got it close, I think that’s one of the reasons why the 14 hole bell crank came about, You can more precisely tune your pulls, Most of my steels are old school 5 hole.
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Jeffrey McFadden


From:
Missouri, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 7:22 pm    
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Not really relevant at this point, but interesting to note: Carter specifies in the owner's manual that you can turn the rods 180° on the dogbone - hook from top or hook from bottom - and simulate having twice as many slots in the bell cranks.
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Home made guitars
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Dan Robinson


From:
Colorado, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2018 9:15 pm    
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Jeffrey McFadden wrote:
Not really relevant at this point, but interesting to note: Carter specifies in the owner's manual that you can turn the rods 180° on the dogbone - hook from top or hook from bottom - and simulate having twice as many slots in the bell cranks.


Jeff, certainly it's relevant. Glad you spotted this. It's interesting that you mention it. When I was working on it today I noticed that the rods could attach from the top or bottom. But it didn't occur to me how this affects the leverage. Good catch!

I don't want to disappoint my wife. She is convinced that men don't read the instructions.
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Tim Herman


From:
Alberta, Canada
Post  Posted 15 Apr 2018 6:42 am    
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Now the only thing left is to add that Franklin B lower to the same knee that your lower your 2nd and 9th string. Engaged, 2 and 9 should both be a C#. Lowering 10th to A in combination with B and C engaged gives you a cool A6 open strum-able tuning. Check the ending of this clip...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idYPYrvyWPQ
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