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Topic: Does the pedal steel guitar world need more builders? |
Nathan French
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2018 10:46 am |
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Pedal steels are relatively cheap...so I can't figure why we're still hearing how most who want to learn can't afford one. |
I don't think it's a question of affording it, it's the financial risk. When someone says "I want to learn electric guitar" they don't just go buy a $2k MIA Fender strat. Most people aren't sure they'll stick with it and smartly go cheap on their first guitar ($100 - $250).
By comparison pedal steels are ten times as expensive to a newcomer. Once you're hooked on pedal steel the options seem affordable compared to regular guitars (you can find nice options of either for $2k).
Going into the steel market as a maker seems really risky to me. You want to sell heavy, expensive, bulky items to people who are mostly retirement age? Yikes! |
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Chance Wilson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2018 11:30 pm
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| Heavy sucks. As much as I love my chrome dinette, the only thing I like about taking it to a gig is the beerproofness of it. Mica feels pretty old to me when you can get carbon fiber on eBay and I imagine it’s exponentially harder, stiffer, lighter and less brittle. |
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Ken Boi
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 4:15 am Re: Costs too much? You're kidding, right?
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| Nathan French wrote: |
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Pedal steels are relatively cheap...so I can't figure why we're still hearing how most who want to learn can't afford one. |
I don't think it's a question of affording it, it's the financial risk. .... |
Financial risk. That was my biggest hesitation in getting into PSG. I was always drawn to the sound of this instrument. But coming from the Chicagoland area, there's no pedal guitar stores in town to just drop in and try one out. I had to get into it sight unseen. A couple years back I decided to do it. I checked prices and started reading this great forum. It startled me at first seeing $2K-$4K price ranges. And with not knowing the first thing about this instrument regarding playing one, it became a tough decision. Was this going to be a financial investment failure? Maybe for some, spending $2K-$4K is totally okay for the unknown, but not for me. Fortunately I did discover Stage One that produces a good guitar for a very fair price at which I felt my investment risk was acceptable. I don't regret taking the endeavor and hope to continue playing for many years. Someday I can see myself investing in another PSG, as the fears and ignorance of the instrument are now behind me. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 7:00 am
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I know I'm old and sometimes crotchety, but I still don't get the logic you guys are using. Look, even if you buy a guitar for two grand and it turns out to be something you can't handle, you don't just throw it away, do you? Odds are that you can sell it and likely get at least most of your money back. So, you've tried and failed. You've "entertained" yourself with it for six months, and it wound up costing you a couple of hundred. So what? Big friggin' deal. It would be the same with just about anything, any other hobby or pastime...golf, cars, shooting, fishing, even going to the movies.
And yet, some people here have the nerve to call me "negative".  That's a good one, really! |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 10:45 am It's. Not. The. Money.
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It's.
Not.
The.
Money.
Too few musicians have a clue what you can do with a pedal steel.
If you don't want it, fifty bucks is too much.
If you want to build a market for the pedal steel, show the incredible flexibility and power of this instrument to young people. Because the rest of us will be dead before that long.
Or don't.
Ever been to a Steel Guitar Convention? Why on planet earth would anyone but an old codger or an aggressive retro cowboy want a pedal steel? Not only does everybody there play the exact same licks to the exact same songs, half the people stand up on stage and badmouth every other genre of music but theirs, if not every song written since 1967. How many threads are on this forum saying that new country music is just noise? How welcome are Robert Randolph fans here?
Marketing brilliance, that.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 11:06 am
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Basically, I agree with Donny. I don't think pedal steels are particularly expensive, and definitely not expensive in constant-dollars, as compared to back in the heyday of pedal steel - let's say 1960s and 70s.
I wanted to buy a starter steel back in 1973/74. It was $450 for a Sho Bud Maverick and $700-1000 plus for a pro-level steel, depending on various factors. It would have been at least another few hundred bucks for an amp loud enough to make it sound right. For maybe double that, you could buy a really nice new car. Totally out of the question for a lot of people back then, and definitely me, broke-college-student-on-scholarship doing full-time co-op jobs 2 quarters out of the year to pay the rest of the bills. No car, no cell phone, one $75 1965 Fender Mustang with a small amp, and definitely no money for a pedal steel. IMO, it's a lot easier to put one's fingers on the kind of money needed to get working pedal steel setup than it was back then. I taught at Penn State for most of the last 30 years, and most of my students have had far more disposable income (in constant dollars) than virtually any of my peers back in the early 70s. And relatively easy access to loans. Yes, there are some students barely scraping by, but go to most major college campuses and you'll see a very different picture than 40-50 years ago. Lots of cars, expensive cell phones, credit cards, and so on.
You can see why using the Bureau of Labor Statistics' CPI Inflation Calculator - e.g., the inflation factor from Feb 1973 to Feb 2018 (45 years) is about 5.8. In other words, $1000 has about the same "value" as $5800 now. Or looking at it a bit differently - one can get a pretty good steel (either a good starter like a Zum Stage One or one of several older but solid professional steels like a BMI, MSA, Dekley, or occasionally others) plus a loud, clean solid-state amp for about $1200-1500. Any new car is 10x that. Even at the high-end of that, this is still less than $300 in 1973 dollars.
As far as financial risk goes, I realize you need to be knowledgeable to know this - but in fact there is very little financial risk to buying a good-quality but inexpensive pedal steel, if you do it intelligently. It's pretty straightforward to sell a good-quality entry-leel steel for about what one pays for it - and if you buy right, sometimes even more.
So I really don't buy the argument that money is the main impediment to starting on pedal steel. Rather, I think it is ignorance of the instrument - what it is, what it does, how much they cost, what it takes to learn, and so on - by the general public (musicians and would-be musicians). Steel guitar, and especially pedal steel, is and has always been a niche instrument, and its players form a relatively tight and small community.
I also note that there are quite a lot of younger players who are learning and playing in bands - especially Americana, indie-rock, and so on. This forum maybe used to be fairly representative of steel players, but I don't think that's true anymore. Somebody is buying all these lower-cost steels like the Stage One, Encore, Mullen Discovery, GFI starter, and so on. They're building quite a few of them. OK, it's never gonna be like selling Squier Affinity Strats for $100-200. Thankfully, IMO.
So - is there a "need" for more builders? I'd say not a "need". But I think there's always room for another if they're willing to build a good guitar and don't expect to make a ton of money. In other words, building pedal steels is, and probably will continue to be, a labor-of-love, to a large extent.
| Quote: |
| Ever been to a Steel Guitar Convention? Why on planet earth ... new country music is just noise? How welcome are Robert Randolph fans here? |
I agree with your other points, and this one to a point. But I do think there are quite a few younger musicians taking up pedal steel who aren't gonna be active on this forum. Sometimes they don't know about it, and sometimes they're turned off by the attitude here. But they're still buying and playing pedal steels. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 12:51 pm
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First, there is an all instrumental hard rock band called “Steelism†which has a steel, (a GFI,) as it’s featured instrument. The players are all in their 20s or 30s, and they play for people their own age. They do not play anything even remotely related to country music. Here is a link to their Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/SteelismMusic/
The band played here recently. I went with our fellow forumite Ben Elder to see them. (3 other forum brothers were also there.) The comments among us afterward were mixed. 2 of the guys thought they were great. One of the guys who is heavily into traditional country, didn’t like them.
The thing to remember here is that these guys are not trying to appeal to the steel guitar community. They play to the 20 something rock audience, and are exposing that audience to the steel. Hopefully they are inspiring some people that age to take up the instrument.
The other point I want to make is that the steel is a hard instrument to learn. How many people have tried and given up? I think the difficulty of learning is more of a discouraging factor than the price.
Learning to play has been described as rolling a boulder over a mountain. You’ve got to roll it uphill at first. We tend to forget just how hard it is for newbies.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Doug Cassell
From:
San Antonio Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 2:37 pm
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
First, there is an all instrumental hard rock band called “Steelism†which has a steel, (a GFI,) as it’s featured instrument. The players are all in their 20s or 30s, and they play for people their own age. They do not play anything even remotely related to country music. Here is a link to their Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/SteelismMusic/
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That's cool! |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 8:02 pm
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| First, there is an all instrumental hard rock band called “Steelism†which has a steel, (a GFI,) as it’s featured instrument. The players are all in their 20s or 30s, and they play for people their own age. They do not play anything even remotely related to country music. Here is a link to their Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/SteelismMusic/ |
If you don't FB, Steelism has a sizeable YouTube presence too. Here's an intro. https://youtu.be/Lz1WvrABH2Q
| Quote: |
The band played here recently. I went with our fellow forumite Ben Elder to see them. (3 other forum brothers were also there.) The comments among us afterward were mixed. 2 of the guys thought they were great. One of the guys who is heavily into traditional country, didn’t like them.
The thing to remember here is that these guys are not trying to appeal to the steel guitar community. They play to the 20 something rock audience, and are exposing that audience to the steel. Hopefully they are inspiring some people that age to take up the instrument. |
My point is not that they are trying to reach the "steel guitar community" as it is commonly recognized to exist. My point is that the vendors who look for their market primarily among said community are missing out on potential customers. And ultimately money makes the mare go. Going back to the original topic, do we need more builders, my point is, not unless we find - or make - more customers. But it's not about the price.
| Quote: |
The other point I want to make is that the steel is a hard instrument to learn. How many people have tried and given up? I think the difficulty of learning is more of a discouraging factor than the price.
Learning to play has been described as rolling a boulder over a mountain. You’ve got to roll it uphill at first. We tend to forget just how hard it is for newbies. |
Steel guitar is probably not as hard to learn at first as conventional acoustic six string. Learning to form, and produce tones with, left hand chord positions on a steel strung acoustic guitar is absolute torture to the beginner. America's closets, basements, and attics are filled with abandoned acoustic guitars. The pedal steel guitar was originally invented in order to make it easier to play the existing steel "Hawaiian" guitar. I began the pedal steel because I was tired of waving my arm around like I was killing flies trying to keep up with chord changes and melody lines on my lap steel.
When I learned the flute, starting in 3rd grade, they didn't even give me most of the instrument at first. They sent me home with the mouthpiece. It took me two weeks to get it to consistently make a sound.
The steel is hard to play well. Most instruments are. Most people here do play it well, so they remember how hard they worked to get where they are today. But actually the pedal steel guitar is one of the most brilliantly designed tools for making music that has ever been invented. Many people could get enjoyable music out of one, even if they never would be among the greats.
I, for instance, won't ever be great, but I'm already getting great joy out of the instrument.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 10:23 pm
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Jerry, I agree with a lot of what you said there. But, I am more in agreement with Ken Boi’s assessment.
As a prospective pedal steel player for 45 years before finally getting one, my concerns were in this order - price before level of difficulty, image before price. You ain’t gonna be the next Elvis sitting behind a pedal steel. Apparently neither is a tall geeky guy with a Strat and a mousey voice either....The builder’s market is limited to a certain musician type, if not a certain music type. |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 5:41 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
Jerry, I agree with a lot of what you said there. But, I am more in agreement with Ken Boi’s assessment.
As a prospective pedal steel player for 45 years before finally getting one, my concerns were in this order - price before level of difficulty, image before price. You ain’t gonna be the next Elvis sitting behind a pedal steel. Apparently neither is a tall geeky guy with a Strat and a mousey voice either....The builder’s market is limited to a certain musician type, if not a certain music type. |
You know, I'd have to buy this. Pedal Steel players are unafraid to walk their own path.
PS You don't often see people playing "air pedal steel."
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 8:49 pm
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| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Jerry, I agree with a lot of what you said there. But, I am more in agreement with Ken Boi’s assessment. ] |
You know, I'd have to buy this. Pedal Steel players are unafraid to walk their own path.
PS You don't often see people playing "air pedal steel." |
You know what else Fred Treece wrote? He called you Jerry. Geez...sorry, man.
Jeffrey, “Air Pedal Steel†is going to be the title of my next album.  |
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Chance Wilson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 9:50 pm
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| Steelism makes me feel old: I listened to their Giraldi track and I like the pianist but it feels academic to me; I don't get the tingles I get when I listen to Gatton's version. I thought we just needed someone to play with their teeth and light their psg on fire every night to get younger folks to buy entry level steels, but obviously I've been on the forum so long, I've become another clueless old guy. |
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Harry Dove
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 5:47 pm
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| In my opinion, it isn't by getting the old people interested in an instrument that it will become popular. It's the kids that will change the future. Look back at the 50's,60's and 70's. Most kids had to find a cheap guitar somewhere and try to play the licks they were hearing on the radio. That translates into a lifetime of what they will support and pay money for. Steel had that briefly when it was the lap steel everyone was playing. Steel didn't become less liked when everyone went to pedal steel, just the opposite. What changed was kids being able to buy one. I suppose we are going to all have varying opinions based on how much money was floating around when we grew up. I started out on a lap steel and got pretty good with it. But when I figured out that I could never copy what was being played, and couldn't afford a pedal steel, I hung it up for a long time. Your mileage may vary. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Mar 2018 9:40 am
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| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
...I'm not really sure you can insult somebody into being on your side. Is all. |
Jeffrey, it's been my observation that we learn more about ourselves (and others) from criticisms than we do from compliments. I don't look at commenting on what many consider to be generational tendencies or habits as personal insults, but I realize your view may be different if you're a part of said generation. Old people take just as much heat as young people do in this area. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2018 10:20 am
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| So pedal steels are the Winnebagos of the musical instrument world. Or maybe the Corvette? |
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Chance Wilson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2018 10:40 pm
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| Rube Goldberg of the musical instrument world and we need more builders so we can have a formal Goldbergian build off. We need to start quantifying everything once and for all like how many forum posts equal one procrastinated practice session. |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 22 Mar 2018 4:49 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| So pedal steels are the Winnebagos of the musical instrument world. Or maybe the Corvette? |
Retirement, Corvette, Pedal Steel, Hawaiian Shirt, Black Socks, Sandals, Mirrored Sunglasses.....all goes hand in hand
_________________
D.S. Rigsby |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2018 5:20 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
...I'm not really sure you can insult somebody into being on your side. Is all. |
Jeffrey, it's been my observation that we learn more about ourselves (and others) from criticisms than we do from compliments. I don't look at commenting on what many consider to be generational tendencies or habits as personal insults, but I realize your view may be different if you're a part of said generation. Old people take just as much heat as young people do in this area. |
Actually I'm a 1947 model myself. 
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2018 5:22 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
You know what else Fred Treece wrote? He called you Jerry. Geez...sorry, man.
Jeffrey, “Air Pedal Steel†is going to be the title of my next album. |
Fred, people been calling me Jerry all my life. Days when that's the worst thing that happens to me are officially good days. 
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Tony Palmer
From:
St Augustine,FL
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Posted 22 Mar 2018 3:39 pm
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Random comments:
I agree with Tony Prior...having to wait 6-9 months for a new steel is a turnoff and undoubtedly HAS to negatively affect sales. I would venture a guess the used market is ten times what the new market is for pedal steels.
Pedal steel is much easier to learn to play today than it used to be. Years ago there were a lot of archaic Fender cable pedal and Gibson console models on the market or badly set up Emmons or ShoBuds as buyer choices. Now all the steels made today are so much more reliable. Also there was very little instructional material back then but now hundreds of YouTube videos are available for all skill levels.
Conclusion...we need not only more builders but we need a mass production supplier even more. These guitars we love to play should be standardized by now. Don’t need all the fancy options that force long, long waiting time.
_________________
Sierra S10 (three!), Peavey 112 and 115, Benoit dobro, Beard Model E dobro, Beard Roadophonic, MSA Superslide, Dean Nickless custom dobro |
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Eamonn O\'Regan
From:
Ireland
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Posted 23 Mar 2018 2:24 pm Does the pedal steel guitar world need more builders?
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I live in Ireland and most steels in use here are USA made, with a few brands from other countries ,e.g. Germany's WBS and Japan's Excel. There is a great variety of instruments out there. I was quoted $2,800 for a brand new keyed SD-10 PSG from a relatively new entry brand at the TSGA Jamboree in Irving two weeks ago. A great price indeed.
Even adding European taxes to this makes this a very accessible purchase at only slightly over twice the price of a Fender Telecaster MIA.There is no remote comparison between what goes into a Tele and a PSG........just think of what's involved in manufacturing a PSG.
I honestly don't know how PSG manufacturers make a living from their craft - I do know that many are players too and they must be in it for the love of it and have another main source of income. Larger manufacturers will benefit from economies of scale.
Yes, it is a difficult instrument to learn but it rewards effort. With YouTube, a huge variety of courses ,motivation and serious effort,it can be learned . And for me it sure beats..er..golf!!
_________________
Custom Excel SD-10 3+5 with G L's 10-1, Mullen SD-10 4+4, BJS bar, Dunlop picks, Goodrich Steel Driver, Goodrich 120 pedal, Peterson strobe tuner, tc Flashback delay pedal, Nashville 112 (with Eminence EPS-12"), Jan Sandvik pack-a-seat.
2") and Nashville 400 amps |
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Carl Heatley
From:
Morehead City,NC
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Posted 23 Mar 2018 2:50 pm
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| I have no problem shipping my custom steels overseas if the buyer pays actual shipping costs. |
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James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2018 3:42 pm
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What I would like to see would be machinists who make parts for any guitar.
If this was a real popular instrument the Chinese would offer one one ebay for $200.
_________________
Curbside Jimmy's New Act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzieFLE5no |
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Johnny Baker
From:
Southport, Fla
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Posted 1 Jun 2021 5:32 pm
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| Larry Carlson wrote: |
I'm 74. I Have white hair and a white beard.
I am a handsome old dude.
I play lap steel. Started a couple of years ago.
I wanted to learn pedal steel.
I do not play pedal steel guitar because I can't afford a hobby that costs more than my truck is worth.
I am also not a mechanical genius so I couldn't maintain or keep a pedal steel running smoothly.
There are no facilities or shops here that even sell lap or pedal steels let alone service them.
A simple lap steel I can handle.
Correction: I do not play lap steel. I play with a lap steel. |
Funny how things have changed in just couple of years. I too live where nobody, and I mean nobody works on them and trying to find someone fairly close is like looking for the proverbial needle in a dozen hay-stacks. So yeah, I would love to see many more repair shops and even builders of these fine instruments. I do believe though, we are losing ground.
_________________
I am currently running a Simmons SD10, Peavey Nashville 400 that's packing a 15" BW, Peavey Delta Fex effects processor, and a Match Box. Best rig I've ever run and the sound is truly incredible. |
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