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Topic: Tube preamp |
Eric Denmark
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 12:23 pm |
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Are there any other (cheaper) tube preamps out there comparable to the black box? Ok be that you can put between the steel and a solid state amp.
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Proud owner of-- '72 Fender Twin Reverb... Black Derby D-10..."Butterball" (my butterscotch blonde 52 hot rod tele-- my favorite guitar EVER)... Anderson "Nashville" T-Model... Lanikai ukulele... and Kawai EP2 keyboard |
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Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 1:36 pm
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I'll give you my two-cents (being a new guy around here, it's worth less than that), because I have been thru similar challenges, hoping to find a cheaper solution, or an unadvertised secret wonder.
For 12 years with the dobro I was looking for a pick-up preamp solution and spent multiple hundreds, until I settled on the Fishman/Nashville JD Aura system which is simply the best. And the most expensive. I studied what the pros were using and those in the know were recommending.
With steel, I read many of the reviews here on the Black Box and the guys that were praising it sure seemed to have the experience to back it up.
I bought a Sarno Black Box, and do not regret it. It is pricey. It also is not a preamp, but rather a buffer/impedance matcher that should be the first thing after your guitar (even before the VP). It's effect on the sound is very subtle. I describe it as putting a tab of melted butter on a steak. Just makes it tastier.
It does not add any gain. The only knob on it seems to brighten your sound the more you turn the knob clockwise.
With my guitars, I'm still learning, but seem to settle on the knob somewhere between 12 and 3 o'clock depending on the amp and guitar.
If you're looking for more gain, it's not the answer.
I have several solid-state amps and it really warms them up. I have not figured out if I like the Black Box on several of my tube amps (such as a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe and an old blackface Princeton). I'm sure it probably helps, but I haven't taken the time to dial them in--I think I'm psychologically predisposed to thinking it is a redundancy).
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 1:41 pm
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| The Black Box is not a Preamp. When it comes to tube preamps, there is no such thing as “cheap†if you want something usable with pedal steel, Brad Sarno has tube preamps that are voiced for pedal steel. The Mesa Boogie Studio Preamp or the Blue Tube will get you some good vibes also. This also depends what power amp yiu are using. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 2:33 am
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A couple of quality not so high cost tube preamps which can
allow for dialing in your sweet tone.
These are both called channel strips, both have parametric EQ and compression. Both are a single rack space.
DBX 376
Presonus Studio Channel --- I use this one on gigs now and then depending on which amp I may be using.
Both can be found on GC's used website for reasonable cost. IF you are tracking into a DAW or workstation, these are just shy of mandatory.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 6:57 am
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I don't know what you mean by inexpensive. I purchased a Two Notes Le Clean preamp pedal ($299) and am very happy with it. I use it directly into my mixer or into my powered speaker (QSC K10). It has an effects loop that I use for reverb. It is very musical to me.
I don't know how it would compare to the boutique preamps since I am unwilling to spend that much for equipment.
Karlis |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 7:43 am
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Previous to my Revelation purchase, I used a Peavey Tube Sweetener patched into my Session 400. It added the tube warmth which could be dialed in to your taste. I now use the Tube Sweetener in my CD recording gear. You can occasionally find a Tube Sweetener on Ebay, but they are getting scarce.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 10:07 am
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| Quote: |
| Are there any other (cheaper) tube preamps out there comparable to the black box? Ok be that you can put between the steel and a solid state amp. |
I've been using and working on both tube guitar amps for 50 years, and have tested various combinations of tube and solid state dozens of times.
A low-priced tube preamp does very little to add "warmth" or "tube tone" to an amp rig. Most of what players hear as "tube" sound comes from the power amp when tubes are being pushed fairly hard.
"Preamp tube tone" alone tends to be thinner. There are exceptions, but they are expensive. Part of the issue is that most low/medium priced tube preamps run at low levels so the tubes are not really doing all that much. They have to be pushed fairly hard in a couple of ways to "warm" things (I'm intentionally oversimplifying, so please don't start a debate) and to do that takes voltage and current requiring expensive power supplies.
There are many low-gain "overdrive" pedals that do a much better job. The J. Rockett "Dude", Tone City "Bad Horse" and little Hottone "Grass" can all be set for unity gain plus varying levels/flavors of clean "tube warmth" with a solid state power amp.
But IMO a high-quality solid-state preamp like a Baggs Venue (an "acoustic" preamp - but works for any instrument) combined with a good tube power amp will get a better overall sound. But again - a tube power amp has to push fairly hard before the sound "opens up".
Most high-output tube amps are overkill and sound thin at low volume. Yet many players still seem to think they need amps like Twin Reverbs when they only turn them up to 2 1/2 and the tubes and speakers are only reaching a narrow frequency response.
Anyway - as far as "Black Box" substitutes I'd forget the tube preamp idea altogether, think "outside the box" and try the "overdrive" type pedals mentioned.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 2:24 pm
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Describing tube sound has always been confusing to put into words. Some, usually rock musicians, consider the tube sound to be crunch or distortion. Each to his own descriptive words. To a clean sound tube enthusiast it's "clean and warm". Some descriptions end up to be a variety of words.
I found one Peavey Tube Sweetener listed on ebay in UK today listed for $330.00. Price is going up. The unique thing about the Tube Sweetener is the two controls "sugar" and "spice". One controls the tone and the other the amount of voltage going through the 3 tubes (clean to overdrive). It's adjustable without having to raise your amp volume.
My description of clean tube, for lack of universal or technical specific words, is "compression", "warmth", "bubbling", "growling", "harmonic overtones". Raising and lowering strings above the 12th fret and you hear slight harmonic overtones going in the opposite direction and chords have a slight clean growl. The older transistor amps of the 70's, Session 400, had a minute similarity.
I've tried several distortion pedals over the past several decades and couldn't exactly duplicate the compression and warmth of a good tube no matter what setting I tried.
All in the ears of the beholder.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 3:05 pm
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| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
| The older transistor amps of the 70's, Session 400, had a minute similarity. |
Generally much higher Transient InterModulation in older SS amps, that in some cases made them more suited for "musical effects".
| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
| I've tried several distortion pedals over the past several decades and couldn't exactly duplicate the compression and warmth of a good tube no matter what setting I tried. |
Tubes create more even harmonics when distorting, while SS circuits create more odd harmonics. One cannot perfectly emulate the other soundwise. |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 21 Mar 2018 12:58 am
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| The beauty of tube preamp circuits is that, in addition to giving variable compression, they will generate a suitable amount of harmonic distortion which doesn't have to sound harsh or distorted to our ears. (It's intermodulation and other types of non-harmonic distortion that sound harsh). Depending on how each preamp tube stage is biased and gain is set it is possible to highlight either even or odd order harmonics. So different designs can sound rather different. I'm kind of partial to a balanced combination of preamp distortion/compression and power amp/speaker distortion/compression. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2018 2:06 pm
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| Quote: |
I've tried several distortion pedals over the past several decades and couldn't exactly duplicate the compression and warmth of a good tube no matter what setting I tried.
All in the ears of the beholder. |
Dennis, FWIW I was not talking about adding any "distortion" in the sense you describe (i.e. audible distortion"), nor suggesting use of "distortion" pedals. "Overdrive" pedals are often used to create a small amount of distortion, but IMO the best uses are as "clean boost" pedals to push a tube amp into saturation *or* to warm up a solid state amp.
"Clean warmth" requires a mild level of distortion. Steve explains it well. Pure clean tones sound awful in a musical instrument context - dry and clinical. No player - regardless of what they think - plays with a pure clean tone as no amplifier is made that way, even $20,000 audiophile "hi fi" amps.
The OP asked for a low-priced tube substitute for the not-inexpensive B:ack Box. That's the problem and why I suggested some specific "overdrive" pedals - NOT for "distortion" but for a better approximation of "tube warmth" than you can get from cheap tube preamps.
The Black Box isn't overpriced IMO, because it does a specific job that requires different/better components than (for example) a $100 Presonus Tube V2 - a preamp with a real 12AX7 tube and a wide range of bad sounds for guitar.
So IMO there are <$150 "overdrive" pedals that will get you a better approximation of "tube amp warmth" than <$150 "tube preamps". But I feel the Black Box is a better overall choice tonewise, and for the price difference I wouldn't even screw around with cheaper solutions. Either buy a Black Box - or even better, just buy a good tube amp!
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 22 Mar 2018 12:46 am
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For band practice I use a Blackstar HT40 tube amp that's set up in the practice room. It's a decent and versatile little amp with a class A option on the clean channel I typically use because it sounds quite nice. But there's no gain adjustment and I usually want more bite and a bit of crunch. This solid state pedal works excellently to give that plus a fatter, tweedish tone with superb dynamics and attack-controlled break up.
https://www.guitarinteractivemagazine.com/issues/issue-17/reviews/wampler-dual-fusion-tom-quayle-signature/ |
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