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Author Topic:  Difference between guitarists & steelers
Patrick Thornhill


From:
Austin Texas, USA
Post  Posted 4 Mar 2018 9:56 am    
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The trend over the last couple years (one I wish would go away) is for guitar manufacturers to take a brand new guitar & "relic" it by beating the hell out of it, rusting it up, and selling it for a premium price, to make it appear "vintage"....It is the ultimate in pretentiousness & poserocity.




Couldn't have said it better, although I propose the spelling "poseurocity". Very Happy

The one exception I would make is for the quasi-relicing that James Trussart does for some of his finishes. It seems to serve an aesthetic purpose tied to the nature of his chosen materials - metals mostly - and not that of the fake antique. I hear he even experimented with peeing on some of them...










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James Winger


From:
Washington, USA
Post  Posted 4 Mar 2018 11:54 am    
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Patrick Thornhill wrote:

The one exception I would make is for the quasi-relicing that James Trussart does for some of his finishes. It seems to serve an aesthetic purpose tied to the nature of his chosen materials - metals mostly - and not that of the fake antique. I hear he even experimented with peeing on some of them...


I think that's where the line blurs. There are naturally occurring processes that can give something a certain character of the material, but isn't really intended as a presentation of overall use

When you think about it, the "classic" sunburst finish is a type of relicing *BUT* it's intent isn't really as an overall fiction of age/use/history

So I think these something to be said for intent

OTOH, despite my statements that it's not for me...not my instrument so knock yourself out
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David Mitchell


From:
Texas, USA
Post  Posted 4 Mar 2018 12:13 pm    
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A reliced or pre-beatup instrument is just a finish choice like antique furniture. It has a vibe. I play both Spanish guitar and steel guitar and what it looks like makes no difference to me. I'm interested in how it plays and sounds. I do think the average pedal steel guitar buyer gets carried away with the no scratches, no smudges thing to their detriment. Like choosing a shiney new GFI pull release student model over an old MSA Classic or XL that barely has any lacquer left on it. It's all about the shine baby!
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Ken Pippus


From:
Lake Oswego, OR
Post  Posted 4 Mar 2018 1:09 pm    
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No, David, sometimes it’s about not getting a hernia lifting it.
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Jack Hanson


From:
San Luis Valley, USA
Post  Posted 4 Mar 2018 2:53 pm     What's the difference?
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The guitar player is the one with level shoulders and both arms the same length. The steel player is the other guy.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 5 Mar 2018 1:17 am    
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the guitar player is also the guy who is mobile, bumping into things, placing his guitars on stands and watching them fall to the ground, the Steel player is the guy who sits behind that dang thing that never moves.
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Barry Blackwood


Post  Posted 5 Mar 2018 9:23 am    
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Quote:
Rich Upright wrote:
"poserocity"

Had to go over it a few times but I got there - brilliant word!

A Google search returned, "No results found." Laughing
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Skip Edwards


From:
LA,CA
Post  Posted 5 Mar 2018 9:46 am    
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The guitar player is the guy who will play at a much louder volume that you do, but will complain about how you're drowning him out... mainly because he's playing with gobs of effects from his pedalboard chock full of tone-reducers, while your sound is clean & pure...
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Dave Hopping


From:
Colorado, USA
Post  Posted 5 Mar 2018 10:35 am    
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Jeff Garden wrote:
Here's the guy at the Fender factory who puts the authentic "road warrior" bar smell into the cases, Doug Smile



Sooo....I got to thinking about that.Since US clean air regulations will get you thirty days in the electric chair for workplace smoking,do y'all suppose relic necks and amp cabs get sent to Ensenada for the burn treatment? Winking
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Barry Blackwood


Post  Posted 5 Mar 2018 10:39 am    
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Sooo....I got to thinking about that.Since US clean air regulations will get you thirty days in the electric chair for workplace smoking,do y'all suppose relic necks and amp cabs get sent to Ensenada for the burn treatment?

A quick trip past any Walmart entrance should supply the proper seasoning..
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Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 5 Mar 2018 3:29 pm    
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David Mitchell explained a bit of the "relic" rationale.

But I've found it relatively useless to explain it to those who apparently have their minds made up about the subject.

For those with open minds and willing to learn - here are just a few points regarding "relics":

The usability of 6-String guitars is VERY dependent on the "feel", and there is a significant difference between the feel of a new, finished neck and one with worn finish. True of the back and of finished maple fretboards.

Many players own real vintage instruments that are worth tens of thousands of dollars - or more. Depending on the venue it might not be a good idea to use an original. Shipping damage is also a problem. so close duplicated are made by any finishers to duplicate the look and feel (others make the vintage electronics and hardware). I've done quite a few of these for specific players.

There's also a big difference between a new Gibson Les Paul Standard and a $350,000 1959, and not just because of the rarity or inflated value. Very few players can afford a 1959, and can't wait 60+ years to "age" one naturally - and it would not be built the same or have the same wood aging which has a significant affect on tone.

So they spend $8,000 on a Murphy-aged R9, which owners of originals will usually tell you is as close as you'll get - and save $292,000 in the process.

Good relic work - like good aging of any piece of art (all guitars are "art" of a sort) is complicated, tedious work that takes a high degree of skill. It it NOT "beating s**t up" - accelerated wear is extremely difficult to achieve in a realistic manner.

Some appreciate the artistry, especially on an object that has a practical purpose. And for the "artist" it can be very enjoyable.

And some just like the "vibe" of old guitars, including the smell.

Last - there are those that do the work and have it done specifically to defraud vintage buyers. I mark every piece I do in a way that it can never be passed off as original.

Unfortunately there are more crappy looking, unrealistic relics than good ones, which is often why players get turned off.

If you learned anything or understood - even if you don't agree - I thank you for bothering to read.

If none of it made any sense at all and you don't understand it - and don't WANT to - just don't discuss the subject. Why waste your time insulting other's work?
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Jim Fogarty


From:
Phila, Pa, USA
Post  Posted 5 Mar 2018 4:14 pm    
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Difference between guitarists & steelers??

Guitarists have been making fun of and mocking the relic craze for a couple decades now.

Steelers are JUST figuring it out and catching on!

("You kids get off my damned lawn!!!")


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Jack Hanson


From:
San Luis Valley, USA
Post  Posted 5 Mar 2018 5:18 pm    
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Virtually all of my old lap steels are relics. Didn't pay any extra for it, either.
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Jack Aldrich


From:
Washington, USA
Post  Posted 12 Mar 2018 12:15 pm    
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Well, I believe that the guitarist say "Look at me! Look at me!" while the steeler elicits the following comment "Who was that masked man?"
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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post  Posted 12 Mar 2018 4:23 pm    
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This may have been said earlier in this post but, I believe this all started with SRV's #1. His Brother Jimmie's old white one he always used to play was a little beat up too - as were the one's we played back then. But, they were already old when we got them and we played the wear into them. I wholeheartedly agree with the original post about how absurd it is to buy one that has been reliced - put your own wear on it for god's sake. I also won't pay a lot of $$ for worn out jeans when I can buy brand new ones for half the price.
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David Mason


From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
Post  Posted 12 Mar 2018 5:17 pm    
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Actually, in Keith Richard's autobiography he takes credit or blame for it himself - Fender had sent him some new reissue Telecaster and he ask them "Can't you make it look a little older?" A 1972 guitar from 1995, you can kinda see it. Perhaps the shiny new finish appeared incongruous with his face? Very Happy

I think part of the problem may be that people are so bored they'll try anything (besides "practice"), but the vast majority of the causation HAS to be simple math: 50% have an I.Q. of 100 or less, and they need to be coddled and stroked too. This explains a great deal of stuff, really.
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Jeremy Threlfall


From:
now in Western Australia
Post  Posted 13 Mar 2018 4:05 am    
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Don’t forget the relic pedals!

http://www.tech21nyc.com/archive/classic_archive.html
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Mike Neer


From:
NJ
Post  Posted 13 Mar 2018 4:12 am    
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David Mason wrote:
Actually, in Keith Richard's autobiography he takes credit or blame for it himself - Fender had sent him some new reissue Telecaster and he ask them "Can't you make it look a little older?" A 1972 guitar from 1995, you can kinda see it. Perhaps the shiny new finish appeared incongruous with his face? Very Happy



Years ago, my friend Ken Parker got Keith to play one of his Fly guitars. Keith loved the guitar, but said "I can't be seen playing this!"
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Doug Beaumier


From:
Northampton, MA
Post  Posted 13 Mar 2018 8:19 am    
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Quote:
Keith loved the guitar, but said "I can't be seen playing this!"


I can understand that. A lot of well known, long time players play guitars and amps that are part of their sound and look. Like Neil Young's road-battered Fender Deluxe amps, Willie Nelson's old Martin with a hole in it, and Kayton's 1953 Fender D-8 steel that he played for his entire career, over 60 years. I'm sure those guys were offered free, new gear from guitar/amp manufacturers and didn't want it.
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 13 Mar 2018 11:01 am    
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Jim Sliff wrote:
David Mitchell explained a bit of the "relic" rationale.

But I've found it relatively useless to explain it to those who apparently have their minds made up about the subject.

For those with open minds and willing to learn - here are just a few points regarding "relics":

The usability of 6-String guitars is VERY dependent on the "feel", and there is a significant difference between the feel of a new, finished neck and one with worn finish. True of the back and of finished maple fretboards.

Many players own real vintage instruments that are worth tens of thousands of dollars - or more. Depending on the venue it might not be a good idea to use an original. Shipping damage is also a problem. so close duplicated are made by any finishers to duplicate the look and feel (others make the vintage electronics and hardware). I've done quite a few of these for specific players.

There's also a big difference between a new Gibson Les Paul Standard and a $350,000 1959, and not just because of the rarity or inflated value. Very few players can afford a 1959, and can't wait 60+ years to "age" one naturally - and it would not be built the same or have the same wood aging which has a significant affect on tone.

So they spend $8,000 on a Murphy-aged R9, which owners of originals will usually tell you is as close as you'll get - and save $292,000 in the process.

Good relic work - like good aging of any piece of art (all guitars are "art" of a sort) is complicated, tedious work that takes a high degree of skill. It it NOT "beating s**t up" - accelerated wear is extremely difficult to achieve in a realistic manner.

Some appreciate the artistry, especially on an object that has a practical purpose. And for the "artist" it can be very enjoyable.

And some just like the "vibe" of old guitars, including the smell.

Last - there are those that do the work and have it done specifically to defraud vintage buyers. I mark every piece I do in a way that it can never be passed off as original.

Unfortunately there are more crappy looking, unrealistic relics than good ones, which is often why players get turned off.

If you learned anything or understood - even if you don't agree - I thank you for bothering to read.

If none of it made any sense at all and you don't understand it - and don't WANT to - just don't discuss the subject. Why waste your time insulting other's work?

Very well said, Jim. In my job as a cabinetmaker, I was asked on occasion to “distress” the furniture I had just painstakenly built. It felt wrong and I sucked at it. The person who finished off my crummy job of it made it look genuine and beautiful in its own way. There is definitely an art to it, as there is with ripping a pair of jeans to Dwight Yoakum specs.
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Dustin Kleingartner


From:
Saint Paul MN, USA
Post  Posted 13 Mar 2018 12:38 pm    
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Personally, I don't like or own any relic'd guitars... but it should be said that guitars are finished differently these days and they won't wear out the same as old guitars. The amount and strength of lacquer that goes on modern guitars would take three lifetimes to wear out so they looked like a guitar from the 60's. Sure, you'll get dings and deep scratches, but not the nice smooth wear that people love.
You can buy a modern tele and play it out every night for 30 years, and the body will look brand new if you take reasonable care of it. Some people like that, some people don't.

Edit: I got it a little wrong, but not completely. Nitros ARE different, because of laws, and because of durability reasons. The article below is a good starting point, not that I'm an expert at all, I'm just sharing where I got my info.

http://www.theguitarmagazine.com/features/all-about-nitrocellulose/

http://www.tdpri.com/threads/old-nitro-vs-new-nitro.562929/

http://www.tdpri.com/threads/acrylic-lacquer-vs-nitrocellulose-lacquer.185055/
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Last edited by Dustin Kleingartner on 15 Mar 2018 6:58 am; edited 3 times in total
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Doug Beaumier


From:
Northampton, MA
Post  Posted 13 Mar 2018 1:49 pm    
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Quote:
...guitars are finished differently these days and they won't wear out the same as old guitars.


Very true, Dustin. The old nitro finishes would scratch off easily, exposing spots of bare wood. We see that on old Fender steels, Telecasters, and Strats. You could almost scratch the paint off with your fingernail! Today's thick poly finishes will never wear like that. If anything, the paint may chip off if the guitar is dropped, but it won't wear off due to player use. That's one argument in favor of relic'ing a new guitar, if a player wants that look. Personally, I wouldn't want a new relic guitar, but I think they are becoming more accepted as time goes on. The new players see them as just another finish option on a new guitar.
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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post  Posted 13 Mar 2018 3:40 pm    
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I hear the arguments for relics, especially the feel of a bare neck thing. I always hated finished necks -especially Fender finishes because they would wear of on your hand in a bad sticky way if you had whatever I had in my sweat. I would always take sandpaper and steel wool to get that off of there. On my 66 strat, that I played forever it was all worn off when I got it and, I guess that set the mold for me. So, I guess you could say that I semi-reliced guitars myself. However, it was for a real reason - not a fake one - sorry, that's the way I feel about it.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/userpix1712/16922_13082688_10153637155715765_1281970303190488211_n_2.jpg
Late in my playing days, I had this gem made, specifically for me to my tastes by Warmoth. It came raw. I had a guy stain the backside and that was it. It is the greatest guitar I ever played. My wife reliced it for me one night when she got mad, with a Toyota Corolla: she threw it and 5 other guitars in the driveway and drove back and forth over them. Hence the Fender neck that a guy gave me - originally it had a Waremoth rosewood with Brazilian rosewood fingerboard neck.

I don't know why it put the link rather than the pic there.
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Doug Beaumier


From:
Northampton, MA
Post  Posted 13 Mar 2018 4:35 pm    
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Quote:
My wife reliced it for me one night when she got mad, with a Toyota Corolla: she threw it and 5 other guitars in the driveway and drove back and forth over them.


Whoa! Whoa! Sounds like a Country song! Surprised
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 13 Mar 2018 4:40 pm    
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Bobby Nelson wrote:
Late in my playing days, I had this gem made, specifically for me to my tastes by Warmoth. It came raw. I had a guy stain the backside and that was it. It is the greatest guitar I ever played. My wife reliced it for me one night when she got mad, with a Toyota Corolla: she threw it and 5 other guitars in the driveway and drove back and forth over them. Hence the Fender neck that a guy gave me - originally it had a Waremoth rosewood with Brazilian rosewood fingerboard neck..

That would have been the same as “till death do us part” for me! And if anyone here says they’re just guitars....grrrr Devil
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