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Topic: Rack and barrel "fix"... and other observations. |
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2010 3:02 pm |
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| I see no reason why you couldn't do that Bob. But you need to keep it out on the edge like the spring tip is now. I've actually got a barrel within a foot of my hands right now. I have a few pages of designs for a new barrel that doesn't use the spring tip. But,,, who needs 'em? If I were a machinist, I'd make some for myself. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2010 6:10 pm
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Actually, I have just about had it.. I have stiffened the barrels up so they are very hard to turn, made damn sure the spring ends were on the outside bottom edge of the rack, brought the barrels up close to the rack, leaving a bit of freeplay, and adjusted pedal stops for minimal rod movement, so there is less chance of the barrels turning, and even marked the barrels at the bottom to make sure the spring tips were not moving at all.. Nothing helps..
It plays in tune for about 5 minutes, and then the low B, followed by the hi B go flat, ONLY when pedaled.. The open strings always remain in tune, which would seem to rule out body or changer issues. Same amount flat every time.
Its maddening, and I am about to give up.. Having a similar problem with low G#-A, but its less frequent, and no amount of adjustment or stiffness of the threads will completely stop this tuning issue either .. I am about to try making a few threaded rods and tuning with nylon nuts at the changer, using the barrels locked up tight.. If that doesn't do it, it will again be posted on the for sale section as a project guitar for someone that knows this system, and has the patience to deal.. As much as I love the sound, look and playability of old Sho Buds, I despise the tunability.
To quote a former Bud owner, someone very knowledgable and experienced, and very well known to everyone on this forum...
"I have never met a Sho Bud that I could keep in tune"
This has been my experience as well.
This is my second 6140,
I owned 2 Pro 1
a 6139 and a Pro III.. Thats 6 Pro models
and 2 Mavericks.. 8 Buds in all, and none of them would play and stay in tune enough for me to keep them. Actually I recall less tuning issues with the Mavericks than the pro models!
Hats off to all you guys that can keep old Buds in tune. I can't, and I envy you - bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 11 Feb 2010 7:54 pm
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| Quote: |
The open strings always remain in tune, which
would seem to rule out body or changer issues. |
Not necessarily.
Changers can have inconsistencies in how
far they pull (or flatten), yet always
'make it back' to 'in-tune-at-idle'.
Incorrect spring-tension or weakened springs,
varying amounts of undue friction within finger
assembly's are a couple of possibilities.
Also check that the stamped-on hex-end
of the tuning rod is not loose.
~Russ
_________________
www.russface
www.russguru |
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Brad Issendorf
From:
Lake City, Minnesota
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Posted 11 Feb 2010 8:10 pm
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| Also make sure that the pull rods are not bent. On the 6140 that I have been working on, the tuning ends of the the pull rods got hit pretty hard somehow and were extremely bent. This along with the spring tails on the barrels not sliding freely make the "actual" length of the rod "change" as it randomly rotates slightly while playing. These things are the equivelent of randomly changing the pedal tuning while in use. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2010 8:33 pm
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| Brad Issendorf wrote: |
| Also make sure that the pull rods are not bent. On the 6140 that I have been working on, the tuning ends of the the pull rods got hit pretty hard somehow and were extremely bent. This along with the spring tails on the barrels not sliding freely make the "actual" length of the rod "change" as it randomly rotates slightly while playing. These things are the equivelent of randomly changing the pedal tuning while in use. |
As stated, I have had enough of this nonsense , and will try some new rods and adjust the rod length from the changer.. If that doesn't do it, it gets ditched for whatever I can get for it, just like the 7 Buds that have preceded it. If I can't get this guitar right, I'll never try another thats for sure.
Some of the aluminum rods don't look so hot, but I have my doubts thats the problem at this point
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Brad Issendorf
From:
Lake City, Minnesota
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Posted 11 Feb 2010 9:03 pm
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I am far from any expert on these, only relaying what I have learned on the only one I have ever worked on. The thought process of what can and obviously does go wrong is different than of either of my MSA's. The night that I took it out to play I actually brought one of mine along just in case, but the Sho Bud played perfectly except for a pick up problem it seems to have. Don't give up, if it sounds as well as the one I have, it'll all be worth it.
Brad |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2010 2:53 am
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| Brad Issendorf wrote: |
I am far from any expert on these, only relaying what I have learned on the only one I have ever worked on. The thought process of what can and obviously does go wrong is different than of either of my MSA's. The night that I took it out to play I actually brought one of mine along just in case, but the Sho Bud played perfectly except for a pick up problem it seems to have. Don't give up, if it sounds as well as the one I have, it'll all be worth it.
Brad |
No not giving up yet Brad, just getting frustrated.. I though I was making good progress, and then WHAM! it started acting up just as if I had never done anything. The threaded rods,w/nylon tuners may work, and may not, but it won't cost too much to try.
I have to watch what I spend.. I have $1200 in this guitar with shipping and 2 extra pedals I have coming, and if I can't get it right, I want to be able to minimize the losses I certainly will incur selling it as a "project".
I am not willing to dissasemble this guitar, go through rebuilding the changer, all new rods, pull parts etc. I wanted to play it, I am not into lovingly restoring old steels the way so many of our friends here are, I just don't have the patience.
bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Brad Issendorf
From:
Lake City, Minnesota
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Posted 12 Feb 2010 4:46 am
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| I can't blame you for that, Bob. We all buy stuff second hand and have visions of it being great sounding/ working well. When we finaly get it, it not what we hoped for or not even what was advertised. Buyer beware I guess. As someone who has fixed professionally and for years and as a kid at home on the farm, my brain automatically goes into "whats wrong with this design" mode and whats most likely to be happening. I took the one I have been messing with on as a favor to a freind and as a personal thing to see if I could make something that was known to be unusable and make it go. I'm sure that you are frustrated, I get that way too, but don't give up. If I can make this one go, I'm sure there is an answer for yours too, and it'll make you glad that you stuck with it in the end. |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2010 5:35 am
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Seriously, it is possible to get it to stay in tune. The two strings that gave me the most crap were 5 and 6, B and G#. It's a good idea to remove the changer and clean/relube it. As stupid as this will sound, the more you take it apart and then go about setting it up, the better it will get. This last time I set the tuning to a version of a universal, I have 16 pulls...including 5 on the 4th string alone. ABC pedals E raise and lower KL, the equivalent to pedals 5 and 6 on the B6. My back neck is G6 nonpedal. I know the despair you speak of. I've had this old guitar in the case for weeks...like I'd locked it in a closet for punishment...It's been for sale...I've cussed at it...I've plotted ways to replace it, risking my sleeping in the same room as the Missus...I had to keep it, I had no choice, as I'm broke...it can be done. Steel your will, set your jaw, drink a bottle of wine...and do it 
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
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Jimmy Gibson
From:
Cornwall, England
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Posted 12 Feb 2010 7:28 am
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What i did to an old R&B i removed all the old rods,and replaced them with new threaded rods and nylon tuners,the barrels were only used on the strings that needed a double raise and double lowers strings.I still used nylon tuners on the strings that needed a d/r d/l ,what i did was lock the nylon tuners on with super glue and never had any problems with the nylon tuners coming lose on those rods.
The strings that only needed a single pull were easy to do ,what i did was screw the nylons tuners on as far as they would go onto the rods push the rod through the changer and through the hole in the rack in line with the pull that was needed allow about 1/8 inch past the rack mark remove the rod and bend the last 3/8inch back from the mark on the rod 45%.replace the rod & nylon tuner tune up as normal it worked great.and you will end up with some spare barrels.
Oopsi forgot to add you will need to turn the racks over so you have the channel facing the headstock.
JG |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2010 11:41 am
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Bob,
I think you should consider sending it to James Morehead. He's very reasonable, and it will come back to you playing perfectly. And,,, you can see what needs to be done. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2010 2:46 pm
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| Jimmy Gibson wrote: |
What i did to an old R&B i removed all the old rods,and replaced them with new threaded rods and nylon tuners,the barrels were only used on the strings that needed a double raise and double lowers strings.I still used nylon tuners on the strings that needed a d/r d/l ,what i did was lock the nylon tuners on with super glue and never had any problems with the nylon tuners coming lose on those rods.
The strings that only needed a single pull were easy to do ,what i did was screw the nylons tuners on as far as they would go onto the rods push the rod through the changer and through the hole in the rack in line with the pull that was needed allow about 1/8 inch past the rack mark remove the rod and bend the last 3/8inch back from the mark on the rod 45%.replace the rod & nylon tuner tune up as normal it worked great.and you will end up with some spare barrels.
Oopsi forgot to add you will need to turn the racks over so you have the channel facing the headstock.
I Jimmy, its been a while.. How have you been my friend!?.. I miss the great chats we had!.
I am doing something very similar to what you did.
I am using new rods with nylon tuners on the B pulls, and plan on turning the basket around so the stop sits square and not on a rounded edge, I am going to mark the rod stop on the bottom to see if it turns, same with the nylon tuner.. I may square off the bottom of the rod stops and weld a piece of square shim to it to catch the edge of the rack so no rotation is possible, although I can't see how a bit of rotation of the rod can affect tuning, as long as the length doesn't change... I am not giving up yet... bob
JG |
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2018 6:55 pm Re: Rack and barrel "fix"... and other observations.
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| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
I found a good easy fix for out of tune notes with pedals engaged..
The barrels were too "freewheelin" it seemed.. My a and b pedals were badly out of tune within 30 seconds, no exceptions... No way you could even get through half a song.
That was my initial diagnosis, and it seemed correct.. I started removing the barrels rod by rod, and did the following to each..
Cleaned all old oil residue from the threads of each barrel, male AND female sides.. I stretched each spring a tad, and before re installing, I wrapped a very small amount of teflon tape on the threads.. This needed to be worked back and forth in and out a bit at first, as the threads are very fine, and it was too tight at first...
It works VERY well.
The barrels no longer move after just a few pedal pushes, and when you adjust, you get a firm positive resistance, but it still is free enough that no real "force" bob |
Bob, you saved my sanity! I have a killer Sho~Bud The Professional that I bought last year. About a month ago the 5th string started losing it's ability to stay in tune. 2-3 minutes and it was 10+ cents flat. It was so exact that I could put the wrench on it and tune it with a twist...the same twist EVERY 2-3 minutes. I couldn't even play a whole song.
I slapped some plumber's tape on it before a jam session I went to this evening. I tuned the guitar before we started and it was absolutely perfect! I purposely used the 5th string more than normal to test it. Perfect.
I don't care what anybody says, you're a genius. Thank you.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
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