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Post new topic Why IMO the B to Bb change does not belong on the vertical.
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Author Topic:  Why IMO the B to Bb change does not belong on the vertical.
Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 2:20 am     Reply with quote

The B to Bb change is far more useful than many people realize. Its obvious use is to make the pedals down chord minor. But that’s just the beginning. If you use it with strings 8,6, and 5 with the pedals up, you get a vague sounding chord that can function as 3 different chords, depending on what note the bass is playing. If you use it with the E string lower, you get a G# minor 9 chord, additionally the change can be used for melodic patterns.

The change yields licks both with and without the E to F lever. One of my tricks is to use it with the E raise, then simultaneously release it, bring the bar down 2 frets, and add the A pedal.

The point is that the change has a lot of uses that are not apparent. You need to experiment with it, and explore it to learn all its possibilities.

Verticals are hard to use by themselves. The physical motion of raising your knee is difficult unless you have some sort of leverage against it, such as using it with the A and B pedals. If the 5th string lower is on the vertical, using it with the pedals to get the minor chord makes sense. But because verticals are hard to use, aside from that one chord, chances are people will not explore all the possibilities the 5th string lower offers. If the change is on another lever players will be more inclined to use it.

In my opinion, the change that belongs on the vertical is the 1st and 7th strings from F# to G natural, (not G#). I cannot recall ever using this change without also using the B pedal; usually, but not always, with both A and B. So, if on a physical level, you need the leverage to use the lever, and musically, the F# to G change is used with the B pedal, it just makes sense to put the F# string raises on the vertical, and the B to Bb on one of the other levers, so players can explore all its possibilities.
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Billy Carr


From:
Seminary, Mississippi USA
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 2:53 am     Psg Reply with quote

I have my LKV only lowering the 10th string to a Bb note. I use it quiet a bit with the 6th string G# raise to get some of the C6th sounds. Very similar to the Boo-wa #8 pedal. I also use it with the AC pedals for some interesting E9th things. I also have another little thing I use on the 4th pedal. I raise the #7 F# to a G#. I use it with a backwards rake of 4,5,6 & 7, no pedals. Also strings 6,7 & 10 w/#4 pedal. Still have more goodies. Ha !!! Thanks. ( got Don Rich licks converted over to PSG for later.)
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Larry Baker


From:
Columbia, Mo. U.S.A.
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 4:31 am     Reply with quote

I have LKV on 5 and 10
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Roger Rettig


From:
An Englishman in Naples, FL
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 6:26 am     Reply with quote

Preaching to the choir here, Mike!

It's my favourite 'KL', and I don't want it in no-man's-land on the vertical. Mine is on RKL and ever more will be so.

There is a wealth of stuff available with that pull. And I actually don't use it to turn a pedals-down chord into a minor (well, very rarely).

I assign my least-used pull to my LKV - raising 1,2 & 7. I do find that, as tricky and unnatural as that upward movement is for me, it's easy to half-pedal my LKV and get a half-tone raise on my 7th string. That's useful.
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Pete Burak


From:
Portland, OR USA
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 7:11 am     Reply with quote

No matter what change you have on a Vertical Lever, you have to be able to use it just as easily as any other pedal/lever.
I have had to make an add-on extension to make the LKV fit better for every Steel I have ever owned.
I usually grab a piece of wood the same width as the lever, drill a hole in it near the top, and use a Hose-Clamp (padded, so it doesn't scratch the lever) to attach the LKV extender to the lever.
The LKV should be super easy to engage with just a slight lift of the leg.
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Roger Rettig


From:
An Englishman in Naples, FL
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 8:18 am     Reply with quote

Well, it's not for me.

We either need to engage the LKV with or without pedals. As one needs to push upwards then some pressure on the ball of the left foot is needed. With or without pedals? Then you have to move your foot backwards or forwards accordingly.

That's the difficulty I'm referring to and it's enough for me to put my least-used pulls on that lever.
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Pete Burak


From:
Portland, OR USA
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 8:34 am     Reply with quote

Roger,
Have you ever made yourself a LKV extender for your Emmons?
I have one on my Emmons.
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Roger Rettig


From:
An Englishman in Naples, FL
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 8:54 am     Reply with quote

I once got hold of some of that sponge-rubber tubing (for keeping water pipes warm, I think) and slid it onto the LKV. It helped a little bit but not enough to continue its use.

I still say the problem is that we have to flex our left foot against something to push upwards - either the floor or the pedals. It's just counter-intuitive for me.

My JCH and my Zum Encore have the 1,2 & 3 raise on LKV. On my Emmons that pull is on my LKL2. LKV on the Emmons currently raises 7 from G# to B. I don't care for it much and that won't survive.

Maybe raising the 5th from B to D would work but I don't think I have enough room at the changer for that. My 5th string is pretty busy as it is!
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 8:58 am     Reply with quote

Jim Palenscar made extenders for me verticals, but I still put the F# to G raise there because I always use that change with at least the B pedal. The F# raise is my least used change.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, Northern California
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 9:11 am     Reply with quote

I have my E raises on LKL and my E lowers on RKL. These are pure reflex positions for me - I've had them there for 25 years. There is no position for the B lower lever that can be combined with both of them.

I don't really have a problem using the LKV without pedals. It doesn't take a lot of pressure to lower one string. I use it sometimes with RKL (E lowers) to get a maj7 chord. And I use it by itself to get a 7th chord with the middle F# string as the root.

I see that I'm missing out on getting a maj7 with the LKL (E raises), but I always think of LKL as a 7th or diminished chord position anyway.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, Northern California
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 9:27 am     Reply with quote

As for moving the G lever to LKV, most players today lower their 6th string G# to F# on that lever instead of raising the 7th string F# to G. That change, along with the 1st string raise, would be very stiff on a vertical. It's often used with the E lowers, which must be on the opposite knee.

Perhaps the reason that your G lever is your least used lever, Mike, is that it has a change on it that most players have abandoned. I switched mine about a decade ago, after playing a Carter at the ISGC. You can still get the G note with pedals down (tunable split), but you can also bend into it without going to another string. It's a more versatile G.
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Alan Bidmade


From:
Newcastle upon Tyne UK
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 9:58 am     Reply with quote

VKL B to Bb works for me. Great with B+C pedal to give a b7!
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Brint Hannay


From:
Maryland, USA
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 10:14 am     Reply with quote

Mike Perlowin wrote:
The B to Bb change is far more useful than many people realize. Its obvious use is to make the pedals down chord minor. But that’s just the beginning.

Having played without splits from the beginning (1983), I can't help finding the concept of the primary use of a mechanical change being to modify another mechanical change a bit odd. I designed my copedent with each change just being itself.* It's worked out well for me.

I now have one guitar with split screws, with my same copedent on it, and it took me a couple of years after acquiring it to bother to tune the splits, and I still don't use them.

I do have the "Bb" lower of both 5 & 10 on LKR rear, but it's my least-used lever, mostly for melody bends and 7b5 chords.

b0b wrote:
As for moving the G lever to LKV, most players today lower their 6th string G# to F# on that lever instead of raising the 7th string F# to G.

I agree with Mike about the G raise on the vertical. While I also lower to G and F# on the 6th string, what the 7th string G raise gives that lowering 6 to G (with or without split) doesn't is a full seventh chord with the A & B pedals. (Can slide down 2 frets to B+E for different inversion). With AB + my E lowers on RKL the G raise gives a full 7b5 chord.
In B+E position G raise gives a full 7#5 chord.
(I know, many players don't favor full chords, but I like them.)

*Actually, credit where credit is due: I got most of the copedent from Jimmie Crawford's--which he devised for a push-pull guitar (where splits are not possible)--in the Manual of Style book. It made sense to me.


Last edited by Brint Hannay on 13 Feb 2018 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 10:25 am     Reply with quote

b0b wrote:
most players today lower their 6th string G# to F# on that lever instead of raising the 7th string F# to G.


I tried that and didn't like it. I felt that it made some things easier, but that there was very little I could do with it that I could not do without it, by using the bar and the A pedal or A-F combination.

I also tried putting the E lower on my RKL, and decided I prefer having it on the LKR. Since my B to Bb lower is on the wrist lever, it was not a factor in my decision.

As I've said before, one size does not fit all.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Oakdale, California
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 10:28 am     Reply with quote

I have had no problem hitting my LKV without pressing any pedals on all guitars I have owned. Up until last year, I had both F#'s to G. I still have string 1 going to G and now raise string 7 to G# (but will most likely change back to G). I can activate the vertical quickly with my foot off the ground. I put the 5th string lower onto a pedal next to my A pedal. I split it with the C# to get a C note, and it kind of acts like the 5th string lower on the C neck making a sweet 1 to 2 move. I just didn't like change enough to tie up a knee lever on it.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, Northern California
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 12:07 pm     Reply with quote

While the "X" lever (lowering B to A#) has many uses, I use it most often to get a scale note in the IV position (no pedals). For example, when playing a melody in the key of G at the 8th fret. It's very handy there. It's not hard to lift your knee when there's only one change short change on the lever.
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Pete Burak


From:
Portland, OR USA
Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 12:56 pm     Reply with quote

Yes I also like to keep it to a half-step change on that lever.
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Bill C. Buntin


Post Posted 13 Feb 2018 4:07 pm     Reply with quote

I had to force myself to get used to it when I had 5 and 10 lower on the vertical. And never thought it as comfortable as when on the RKL. So I switched back and have since always carried the 5 and 10 lowers on the RKL. The vertical has G# to F# as previously mentioned. I used to raise string 1 a whole step as well but do not use that change much. And for a time I was lowering the low G# down to E with the vertical.

Bill
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Bob Carlucci


From:
Candor, New York, USA
Post Posted 14 Feb 2018 2:46 pm     Reply with quote

I just never used that change.. Never could find the right use for it.. I am in the minority for sure, but always found it was easier to half pedal when I wanted to use that half tone change... bob
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Dave Hepworth


From:
West Yorkshire, UK
Post Posted 14 Feb 2018 3:33 pm     Reply with quote

Hi Folks,
Do yourselves a favour and raise 5th string B to D on LKV.It works well with 2 pedals down to give a sus4 .......or dominant 7 on open.... and MANY more nice passing notes and embellishments.
It also saves lowering 2nd string down a semitone too thereby keeps playing more horizontal than vertical in approach.Its a keeper for me.
Regards Dave
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Larry Allen


From:
Anchorage,Alaska & Kapaa,Hawaii
Post Posted 14 Feb 2018 4:27 pm     V lower Reply with quote

With my A & B I add the LKV (5th )and the E lower for a nice diminished chord.... Smile
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Pete Burak


From:
Portland, OR USA
Post Posted 14 Feb 2018 5:42 pm     Reply with quote

I love that Diminished chord!
I originally learned that particular Diminished pedal/lever combo from Reece Anderson. Smile
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Larry Bressington


From:
Kearney Nebraska
Post Posted 14 Feb 2018 6:35 pm     Reply with quote

I know I’m old school on this.....but i like to use 2 string grips for clarity rather that 3 string groupings on average. This illuminated the need for more levers and possibly not even using a vertical, dunno, you can do a lot with a 3 and 4 or less if your not doing solo instrumentals where you need the full chords.

On top of that my fave vertical move is 6th down to G on a wound string, it doesn’t require much effort.

I back the bar up and press B pedal for the same interval as b/b flat lever, or lower Es if I want the extra chord tone.
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Andy DePaule


From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Eugene, Oregon
Post Posted 14 Feb 2018 9:45 pm     Reply with quote

Pete Burak wrote:
No matter what change you have on a Vertical Lever, you have to be able to use it just as easily as any other pedal/lever.
I have had to make an add-on extension to make the LKV fit better for every Steel I have ever owned


On my new Mullen it has what they have designated as "Vertical Knee Lever Extender".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKH_bfJ9lz0
It really does help to bring the vertical lever to a slightly better position, though still not quite as natural as moving my legs left or right. I also have the PSG legs one inch shorter for the same reason. I'm 5'11" and like this set up.

I have my 5th string B to Bb on that LKV, but will give some consideration to what Mike Perlowin said as it seems to make a lot of sense.
Right now I raise my 2nd string from C# to D and 7th string from F# to G with my RKR. Think of it as my dominant 7th chord knee lever.
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 14 Feb 2018 9:59 pm     Reply with quote

My guitar won’t do a vertical, but I do lust for a B>Bb change. If I had it, the first chord I would go for is F#9 (7-5V-4-3). Having it on a pedal would be fine with me, but I don’t know any better.

Just curious, does a vertical lever work with the other levers on the same side? Is it possible to get a Bmaj7 with 10-8LKR-7-5LKV?
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