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Topic: Tone problem |
Nick Waugh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 3:24 pm |
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I've been playing for 10 years now and I am still struggling to get more warmth in my sound. I started off with with a Carter SD10 with a George L's through a Peavey Nashville. I tried various pickups and settled on an Alumitone which did improve my tone. Then I made the Ken Fox modifications and replaced The Peavey speaker with a Telonics. All this added more warmth and punch to the sound. I have now replaced my Peavey Nashville with a Pedal steel Mini. Again, this has improved my tone.
However I still feel there is a harshness which I struggle with. I roll off my mids, have the treble at 5 and the bass at 6 - but I still feel the sound is thin. I haven't tried a Bill Laurence pickup. Is it worth a try? Any ideas?
Please check out the link to hear how my steel sounds with my band:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXBeWz3meNo |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 4:08 pm
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Your description sounds familiar. I sometimes experience this also and have come to believe that it can be from picking to hard or too directly on the string.
I am trying to angle the picks and pick softer and recently have been trying angled picks and am liking it better.
Hard to break habits so I work on it at home and try to relax. Good luck.
Last edited by Ken Metcalf on 2 Feb 2018 1:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 4:38 pm
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With my Milkman Mini I run the mids at 8 or 9, the treble down around 3 and the bass at about 5. It's counter-intuitive but you need to turn up the mids to get the amp to sound right.
Listening to your track let me first say, your playing is excellent. Your parts are very appropriate for the song. The tone is very bright, but it works well for the material. It certainly sounds like you are running a lot of treble and not much mids. Just reverse that and see what you think.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Dave Hepworth
From:
West Yorkshire, UK
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 5:23 pm
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Hi Nick,
Liked your official recording and looked your band up on utube for other recordings.I really enjoyed the sound.What steel do you use ? Where in UK are you ....would come to a gig if near.
Regards Dave. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2018 11:13 pm
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How loud is your amp running? Tone control settings are relatively meaningless - they should change anyway - every time you play in a slightly different place (size or configuration) or when the volume level changes.
Studio tones are usually much different than live sounds as well. So much software tweaking is done in the studio that it's virtually impossible to tell what the "real" sound is. Most engineers I know don't have players use SS amps in the studio - it's easier to EQ clean tones when the instrument is run direct, unless tube warmth is desired.
But if you were playing through the amp in the studio and the volume level was fairly low that could be part of the problem. When a speaker is not driven completely it tends to sit in a heavy upper-mid region, with lower mids and bass picking up - along with significant warmth - as the volume increases.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2018 12:27 am
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2018 1:22 pm
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What cables are you using???... fwiw, GeorgeL cables are typically reported to be the most Treble-ee sounding cables out there, according to folks in the cable testing/comparing biz.
Your Steel tone on that recording sounds fine to me.
I would not call that "too treble-ee" at all.
Another thought... 70's MSA's are often reported to have a Darker tone. Maybe there is one in your area. |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 2 Feb 2018 1:48 pm
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I see Brad has checked in already. Either the Black Box or his Freeloader might be just what you need. Freeloader is less $ and very convenient for taming shrill or harsh top end without killing all the sparkle like a standard treble cut does. Lots of players wouldn't go out without one or the other.
That said, your sound fits well in the mix on the Odin Calling video.
Cheers, Chris
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Nick Waugh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 2 Feb 2018 6:58 pm
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Thanks for all your suggestions so far. I have a lot of avenues to explore from your feedback. I do use i george Ls cable from my instrument into my Hilton pedal. I can start by changing that. I did try increasing my mids but I wont really know until my next band rehearsal if that helps, as I need to hear it at volume and with the band.
I am already using the L'll Izzy. Would the Freeloader just be duplicating what the L'll Izzy is doing?
Final point. Is my SD10 Carter a naturally bright sounding instrument? If so, maybe I should think about replacing it with something more mellow sounding, i.e an MSA? |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 2 Feb 2018 11:41 pm
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Nick, you are already using two buffers, the Izzy and the Hilton pedal; changing your cables would make practically no difference.
The Freeloader and Black Box are both buffers, but unlike what you are using now, they place an adjustable resistive load directly across the pickup coil ahead of the buffer circuit which has the effect of lowering the amplitude of the resonant peak of the pickup. Without getting too technical, this reduces any harshness or stridency without killing the clarity and sparkle.
You could just clip a resistor across the output jack terminals under the guitar to see the effect. Somewhere between 68 k (ohms) and 270 k should do it. Maybe your amp tech or sound man can lash something up with a trim pot, a couple of alligator clips and a bit of wire. Just add that to your current setup and you will hear a difference, guaranteed.
As for your guitar, well, my Carter was was quite bright with 3 different pickups, and I have not heard any complaints of Carters being dark sounding. But it did sound good, played smooth and held its tune well. Not terribly heavy either. I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to dump the guitar.
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 5:43 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
What cables are you using???... fwiw, GeorgeL cables are typically reported to be the most Treble-ee sounding cables out there, according to folks in the cable testing/comparing biz.
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I agree totally. First, try it without the Izzy. Then, you should also try using various cable lengths between the guitar and volume pedal (both the George-L cables and standard ones) to tame your highs.
Your tone sounds okay to me. But then again, cheap recording devices don't really give a true picture of live sounds, especially at a distance from the source. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 8:21 am
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Nick, I really do understand what your issue is. I dealt with the same thing and worked for years on it. It s a combination of things. Go ahead and get in touch and I’ll maybe help point you in the right direction.
The cables won’t help and the MSA really won’t help. 15 minutes one on one on skype should do it. I don’t want any money.
_________________
Bob |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 12:30 pm
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From listening carefully my guess is that you are picking to close to the bridge and not solid enough. That warm solid midrange is the first to go if you aren't getting enough pick on the string.
I would also spend some time looking at your left hand. Your vibrato can get very fast which means you may be using tension to hold the bar. Any tension in the left hand can cut off overtones.
The tone you seem to be missing is in the 800hz range. This is where 15" speakers can have a dip. The mini (milkman) does not have this issue unless you turn down your mids.
I would not buy anything or change gear at all.
I am lucky enough to have always been around truly great players that would show me in person how to deal with all that stuff.
Overall you sound great. Super musical and just right for the band.
_________________
Bob
Last edited by Bob Hoffnar on 4 Feb 2018 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 2:07 pm
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I wasn't able to get a tone I liked from my Carter D-10 with Alumitone pickups. I replaced them with Tonealigners and now it sounds fine. I also tried the George L's 10-1 pickups. One of them was muddy and the other was tinny. I don't know why but neither sounded right to me. I have a Telonics pickup in my new Sierra guitar. It is a humbucker with adjustable poles like the Tonealigner. I like it, too.
A lot can be done with the midrange shift control on Peavey amps. I think that rolling off the mids is probably a mistake. Turn the mids all the way up and play with the shift knob to find the tones that you're missing, then back it off to balance with the highs and lows.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Patrick Huey
From:
Nacogdoches, Texas, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 2:22 pm
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Nick,
I had the same problem with my pre RP Mullen. Tried adjusting amp, different strings, etc, took the 10-1 pup out and installed a 705 which helped. Then I got a Hilton Digital Sustain box, One of the original ones with the tone adjustment knob. It's a buffer and the tone knob gently tapers the highs till about 3/4 of its revolution then it REALLY tapers them. I've been really pleased with the result. I like it even better than the Matchbox.
_________________
Pre RP Mullen D10 8/7, Zum 3/4, Carter S-10 3/4, previous Cougar SD-10 3/4 & GFI S-10 3/4, Fender Steel King, 2 Peavey Session 500's, Peavey Nashville 400, Boss DD-3, Profex-II, Hilton Digital Sustain, '88 Les Paul Custom,Epiphone MBIBG J-45, Fender Strat & Tele's, Takamine acoustics, Marshall amps, Boss effects, Ibanez Tube Screamer, and it all started with an old cranky worn out Kay acoustic you could slide a Mack truck between the strings and fretboard on!! |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 9 Feb 2018 9:51 am
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I would explore a different pickup
I tried to make an Alumitone work out of many different amps and it never sounded right. I bought my Williams with it - thats now my #1 steel since I changed the pickup for a Tonealigner. HUGE improvement. The Alumitone is very bright and nasal sounding, I am not sure what they were going for with that one but luckily its an easy and inexpensive job to replace it.
_________________
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Milkmansound.com
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 9 Feb 2018 12:25 pm
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The pickup is very unlikely to be the problem.
I'll ask again - How hard are you driving the speaker? Is the amp turned up to 2 or 3 and not driving the speaker to full frequency response, or are you driving the thing hard enough to fully "open" the speaker up?
If you're driving the speaker fully you need to look at THE most basic tone-determinin component - the tubes and power tube bias setting.
When were the power tubes installed, what type are they, and who biased the amp? Did you have it rebiased slightly hotter to try to warm up the sound?
If the "wrong" tubes are installed, the tubes are weak/bad, or the power tube bias setting is cold nothing else you change can "fix" the tone.
If you list what specific preamp tubes are in each position I can take a look at some tube comparisons and see if one or more changes might warm the sound up - this needs to be done before anything other than power tube biasing (which is slightly more involved, so we'll move it back a notch).......
Next - most amp techs set power tube bias slightly on the cold side for pedal steel to try to provide a squeaky-clean sound. If that's true here it could be the entire problem, or a major part of it. "Fixing" it requires a tech that can/will rebias the amp while you play to "dial in" your preferred basic sound.
With a fixed-bias tube amp these are the most basic "adjustments" possible - and need to be handled and fine-tuned before anything else.
If you don't do these things you could, "tone chase" and spend huge amounts of money and never solve the problem.
Sorry, I missed the amp type earlier or I would have already posted this.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 10 Feb 2018 7:16 pm
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Fender has come up with V-Mod pickups for their guitars.
Using different types of magnets combined into one pickup has become a "new" thing among pickup makers.
It's sounding interesting.
On a single pickup for example using AlNiCo II for the wounds and AlNiCo III for the treble strings has opened up a new horizon for pickups.
And then in a multi-pickup guitar, using different version combinations of the AlNiCo magnets on each pickup. It's like fine tuning the pickup for the position on the guitar, neck, middle, bridge in the case of a Strat.
Perhaps we'll see these designs on psg pickups soon.
There are more than one, several types of AlNiCo actually, going up to at least 8 versions, if I'm not mistaken.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2018 2:55 pm
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| Quote: |
| Using different types of magnets combined into one pickup has become a "new" thing among pickup makers. |
Jerry Sentell makes custom pickups with mixed magnets; he's made pedal steel pickups for me and done several rewinds - that's who I'd go to for something like that. He does great work and (in my experience) his custom stuff is priced much lower than most makers.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Ron Funk
From:
Ballwin, Missouri
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Posted 12 Feb 2018 3:48 pm
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Nick -
You mentioned that you are using a Lil Izzy.....which is a great product for adding string clarity, but sometimes highs might be emphasized more than desired.
That being said, it may be contributing to your issue. Have you tried playing without it?
I like Brad Sarno's suggestion.....the Black Box will definitely provide you a much warmer 'tubey' sound. And you might be surprised at its' total tonal clarity through out the fret board.
Searching for tone is an endless journey.
Welcome to the trail....
Ron |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2018 7:40 pm
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I use tube amps (old Fenders), but when I have used a Peavey LA 400 I had good tone with a Black Box in front of the signal chain. Your sound is great - you just gotta play with tone - Save your money and work with what you have.
I forgot picks for a show once (ouch). Did the show without them and sounded fine. We never told the audience  Try variations with and without picks , different
materials of picks, thumb pick and no finger picks , etc. You might be surprised. Also pick angle - experiment and notice the tonal differences - is the flat of the pick hitting the string or is the edge of the pick hitting first?
Was the Youtube recording direct into the board or through a mic'ed amp? - it sounds direct to me.
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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