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Post new topic E9 4x5 Copedent Thoughts?
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Author Topic:  E9 4x5 Copedent Thoughts?
MIchael Bean


From:
North Of Boston
Post Posted 11 Feb 2018 12:19 pm     Reply with quote

I have my 0 pedal bringing the 6th string G# up to A#. By playing strings 4, 5, 6 with 0 and A pedals down I can play the dom7 chord in the position that I always wanted. This is handy for playing a I IV II7 progression without moving the bar. I can also do 7th chord bends like the intro to Tonight the Bottle Let Me Down.
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Last edited by MIchael Bean on 12 Feb 2018 9:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Baron Collins-Hill


From:
Maine, USA
Post Posted 12 Feb 2018 5:47 am     Reply with quote

Jim Morris wrote:


Honeslty, the standard setup Doug does on his 4x5 or 3x5 is plenty to keep you busy forever and a day.


Thank Jim,

Do you (or anyone) know what Doug's stock 4x5 copedent is?

Thanks,
Baron
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Baron Collins-Hill


From:
Maine, USA
Post Posted 16 Feb 2018 7:09 am     Reply with quote

The more I look at Peter's copedent the more I like it. Wouldn't the G natural be available with a P2 and RKL split?

Thanks,
Baron
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 16 Feb 2018 9:26 am     Reply with quote

Baron Collins-Hill wrote:
Jim Morris wrote:

Honeslty, the standard setup Doug does on his 4x5 or 3x5 is plenty to keep you busy forever and a day.

Thank Jim,

Do you (or anyone) know what Doug's stock 4x5 copedent is?

There is a stock setup on the Stage One 3x4, but I don’t think there is on an Encore 4x5. They are custom ordered and adjustable. This might give you an idea of how to do the splits that are possible with the 0 pedal and vertical lever:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=319801
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Oakdale, California
Post Posted 16 Feb 2018 9:55 am     Reply with quote

Baron Collins-Hill wrote:
The more I look at Peter's copedent the more I like it. Wouldn't the G natural be available with a P2 and RKL split?

Thanks,
Baron


Yes. It's quite common.
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Peter Nylund


From:
Finland
Post Posted 16 Feb 2018 10:01 am     Reply with quote

Baron Collins-Hill wrote:
The more I look at Peter's copedent the more I like it. Wouldn't the G natural be available with a P2 and RKL split?

Thanks,
Baron


Yes, of course. Except that split, you also need to split the A pedal with the vertical to get the c notes. Another good split is the c pedal and the e lower. There are tons of brilliant voicings utilizing those changes. Having said that I would like to point out the importance of having the b lowers on the vertical. Very comfortable place for it
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Baron Collins-Hill


From:
Maine, USA
Post Posted 16 Feb 2018 1:22 pm     Reply with quote

Anyone have thoughts on adding a feel-stop to 1st string raise to get a G natural between the F# and G#?

Thanks,
Baron
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Oakdale, California
Post Posted 16 Feb 2018 2:15 pm     Reply with quote

Baron Collins-Hill wrote:
Anyone have thoughts on adding a feel-stop to 1st string raise to get a G natural between the F# and G#?

Thanks,
Baron


I have never been able to get the half stop so you can feel it while trying to quickly activate the lever. I didn't like the "bump" when trying to hit the G#. I've tried with a Carter, Super Pro, Williams. But there are some that an get this to work. You won't know until you try.
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Roger Crawford


From:
McDonough, GA USA
Post Posted 9 Nov 2018 10:56 am     Reply with quote

I just found this post while doing a search on the Franklin pedal. I see that the 7th string raise F# to G# is quite common, but the question was raised about just raising it to G. It seems that would be a good passing note going from F# to G then to G# on the 6th. What are the advantages of the two changes?
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 9 Nov 2018 11:54 am     Reply with quote

Roger Crawford wrote:
I just found this post while doing a search on the Franklin pedal. I see that the 7th string raise F# to G# is quite common, but the question was raised about just raising it to G. It seems that would be a good passing note going from F# to G then to G# on the 6th. What are the advantages of the two changes?

With AB down, the half step raise on string 7 changes the chord from A6 to A7. The logic of having the 7th on string 7...very Spock.
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Roger Rettig


From:
An Englishman in Naples, FL
Post Posted 9 Nov 2018 12:25 pm     Reply with quote

Roger - I raise 1,2 and 7 (on my LKL2) and I find it's really easy to half-engage that lever to get the G note on my 7th.

I use that option quite a lot with A and B engaged.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, Northern California
Post Posted 9 Nov 2018 1:54 pm     Re: E9 4x5 Copedent Thoughts? Reply with quote

Baron Collins-Hill wrote:
There's a good chance I will be ordering a Zum Encore from Doug when he starts taking orders again, and I will go with a 4x5. Emmons with a Franklin pedal at 0.

Here's what I have so far, with one big question being RKL. I've put a couple options down and would love opinions, along with any thoughts on what looks blatantly like a bad idea or other ideas I should strongly consider.

Thanks very much,
Baron


For the "one big question being RKL", here's what I prefer:



My 4th lever (shown as your RKL above) is simple, but it does almost everything that a 3-pull lever does if you're comfortable with bar slants (I am). It's easier to tune and has fewer mechanical difficulties.

Nothing in your copedent strikes me as a "bad idea". I'd remove the 8th string raise on P3 and the 10th string lower on LKV because they aren't necessary IMHO. But when ordering a new guitar, it's better to have too many parts than too few. Mr. Green
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Last edited by b0b on 9 Nov 2018 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post Posted 9 Nov 2018 1:54 pm     Reply with quote

As I said, In feel very strongly that putting the B to Bb change on the vertical in a huge mistake.

The B to Bb changed is the most mysterious of all changes. It has a million subtle uses that are not easily understood, You have to really experiment with it to learn what can be done with it,

Verticals are harder to use than the other knee levers. Personally, I can only use mine when one or 2 of the pedals are pressed down, so I have some leverage to use against it. Now perhaps the most common use of the B to Bb change is to make the pedals down a chord minor, and when used that way, you’ve got the needed leverage. But that doesn’t help you learn all the other uses of the change. If you put it on a regular knee lever, it is more accessible, and therefore, you are going to use it more.

In my opinion, the right change for the vertical is the F# to G natural change on the first and 7th strings. This change is almost always used in conjunction with at least the B pedal, of not A and B, so you’ve got the needed leverage when you want to use it.

The B to Bb works with both the E to F and E to Eb changes, and for that reason, I recommend that they be placed on the same knee. By doing so, you lose the ability ton go smoothly from one to the other, but in my opinion, it’s worth it.

B to Bb is also a B6 change if you play a universal, Jeff Newman played a U-12, and had the change on his vertical. He also had custom made extra long verticals that covered most of the length of his guitars. A lot of folks say ”If it was good enough for him….” I submit that because Jeff was such a well-known teacher, he was under estimated as a player.

You know the saying, those that can do, those that can’t, teach. Well, Jeff proved that saying wrong. He was a fabulous player. I attended about 15 conventions, and every time he turned in one of the best sets of the entire convention. Her could use the B to Bb on a vertical, in a way that us mere mortals can not.

My recommendation is that you put the E raises and lowers on the same knee, the B to Bb change on a regular knee lever on the other foot, and use the vertical to raise the 1st and 7th strings. If you want any other changes, you can add 1 or 2 pedals.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, Northern California
Post Posted 9 Nov 2018 2:04 pm     Reply with quote

I often use LKL and LKV together, Mike. It's not as hard as it sounds. Also, I put my E lowers on the right knee. Razz

And if you only lower the 5th string, not the 10th, the vertical doesn't take much effort at all. I've rarely felt the need to lower my 10th string to A#.
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post Posted 9 Nov 2018 2:15 pm     Reply with quote

bobby, You are a highly accomplished player. I submit that many of the people here are either newbies, or intermediate level players, who do not have your level of skill. My post was for them.
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Roger Crawford


From:
McDonough, GA USA
Post Posted 9 Nov 2018 2:24 pm     Reply with quote

So, if the F# to G# raise on the 7th string is on the RLR along with the D/C# 2nd string half stop, can I assume the half stop can be tuned for a G to G# split?
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, Northern California
Post Posted 9 Nov 2018 3:43 pm     Reply with quote

Roger Crawford wrote:
So, if the F# to G# raise on the 7th string is on the RLR along with the D/C# 2nd string half stop, can I assume the half stop can be tuned for a G to G# split?

If you're very lucky! They can't be tuned independently.

The G note isn't real critical tuning-wise because it's mostly used as a b7 with pedal down or a minor 3rd above E. As long as it's not flat or more than 14 cents sharp of where you tune your E's, you should be fine.

If you're hoping for equal temperament, you'll probably have to experiment with string gauges to get close.
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