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Topic: Tuning for the classic song "Sand." |
Mark Leonard
From:
Santa Fe, NM USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 8:01 am |
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| Can anyone tell me with certainty what tuning the song "Sand" is typically played in on an 8-string? I once heard that the tuning was B11, but i would like to know for sure. Can the song be played in other keys and still sound the same? Jules Ah See, Isaac Akuna, and other great players have performed a version of it that sounds in the same tuning. Is that tuning B11? Thanks. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 8:50 am
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B-11th for sure. 
Erv |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 10:21 am
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B11 was seemingly made for that song...can't imagine it played in another tuning, but would be interesting if someone tried. You might be able to fake it in A6, skipping a lot of the 9th chords and "dumbing it down" somewhat, but, why would you want to?
Back to the fons et origo, the composer's version...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcG-31ga5e0
Listen to the first arpeggio...B-D#-F#-A-C# (1-3-5-b7-9) on the bottom 5 strings, then he skips up two frets to hit D#-F# (third and fifth again) before returning to that B9 and then shifting position... That right there has got to be B11...
Wasn't sure Andy Iona actually played it in B11 but just from that couple seconds I would wager he certainly did. Most (all?) following did likewise.
Re 8 string, I have a low tuned 8 string (fifth and octave root below the 6 string B) on my Stringmaster, and I'm probably just needing better technique, but I find it a bit muddy and cluttered compared to a basic 6 string B11. Just need to practice it more! Oh, the other thing is the (I think Jerry Byrd) practice of raising the low B to C#, giving you an extra 9th and leaving the root implied. Since B11 is an "A6 on top, B9 on bottom" type of tuning, having the C# down low allows you to add in a supporting lower 3rd harmony to the major 6th chords on the top 4 strings. As I recall from here he did so to allow the final notes not to stand out so unsupported. "leaving me all by my own alone", that note.
Great song!
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 10:29 am
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I have "Sand" tabbed out for E9th.
It doesn't lay out as nice as in Bllth but it's doable!
Erv |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 10:51 am
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Wild! Never played with the diatonic tunings...
I may tinker someday and see if I can sort out a way to rearrange it for Basil's A7 copedent on my Fender 400...would take some thinking through...
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Mark Leonard
From:
Santa Fe, NM USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 11:00 am
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| Jerry Byrd has a great version of "Sand" on You Tube. It was recorded in 1990 at the local station in Honolulu. Absolutely fantastic playing. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Mark Leonard
From:
Santa Fe, NM USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 11:38 am
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| When I watched Jerry Byrd playing it, it literally brought tears to my eyes. Surely no human can play like that. His talent was truly heaven sent. How did he do that "chime/ethereal" effect on it? Was it merely a light plucking of the strings? |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 11:58 am
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| Mark Leonard wrote: |
| Jerry Byrd has a great version of "Sand" on You Tube. It was recorded in 1990 at the local station in Honolulu. Absolutely fantastic playing. |
If its Jerry Byrd and Friends, that's the one with Gary Aiko singing. There aren't enough vocal versions of this one recorded, I think, it is a lovely song. Jerry also has his unique intro/outro in that one.
My favorite is the Jules Ah See one on youtube where he is playing with a vibraphone. Not sure if it is from Hawaii Calls...the Hawaii Calls album I have with Sand doesn't have the vibraphone.
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 12:00 pm
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| Nic Neufeld wrote: |
B11 was seemingly made for that song...can't imagine it played in another tuning, but would be interesting if someone tried. You might be able to fake it in A6, skipping a lot of the 9th chords and "dumbing it down" somewhat, but, why would you want to?
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There's a video of Billy Hew Len playing "How'd Ya Do", another B11 classic,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IrSq1rOoL4
Where it seems he plays the basic tune in A6 and uses various slant to get the voicings you'd get with a straight bar on B11...and a few others! And of course the vibrato!
However, I'd love to hear what you experts and pros think is really going on in this rare video.
BTW, I'm a Billy Hew Len fan. There's not lots of teaching material related to his style.
I've also been spending a lot of time with B11...wonderful tuning. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 2:32 pm
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Mark and I had a discussion off ine but I thought I'd share my answer to the group FYI:
Jerry is using his foot-controlled volume pedal to swell the notes and remove the upfront attack on the note. This is called “the violin effect.†He does this by picking with the volume off and then gradually, bringing the volume up AFTER the note is plucked. Jerry also had a secret trick: his volume pedal was wired differently than 98% of players would do it; his was wired backwards! So, instead of pushing down to increase the volume, he lifted his foot to increase volume. Jerry said he felt this gave his much more control.
Here is JB in his own words:
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“I set the peak volume that I want on the amp – not the instrument. That’s usually about 4.5 or 5, depending on where I’m playing. I then turn the volume on the instrument fully open. I set the treble control on 2 or 3 and the bass to about 7. These setting may vary depending on which instrument I’m using. That other knob (the middle) I set on 6 or 7 also. Then I set the tone control on the instrument half-way between treble and bass, a nice soft tone with a little “edgeâ€, so it won’t sound too bass-ey or too whine-y.
I like and use a volume pedal but NOT continually. And I use it differently from almost anyone I know, in that you can always hear the “attack†– the actual picking – whereas many use it to continually “squeeze†the notes and little or no actual attack is ever heard. That’s not good because you will become addicted to it. Your subconscious mind will tell you to push that thing down and then pick what strings you want to use, and in case you mess up, you’ve got another grab at it, and THEN you open it up. The only time I use a fully closed volume is when I want to use the “violin†effect, as its called, with each note played with no sound and then opened,. My volume pedal is also made differently in that the volume INCREASES on the up sweep, not down, as all others. I find it the easiest and have always done it that way. Also, I use a 500 meg. Audio taper control all around on both guitar and volume pedal." |
So there you have it!
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Mark Leonard
From:
Santa Fe, NM USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 3:18 pm Audio taper control?
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Andy,
What is an audio taper control? Is it something commercially available, or does one need to have it custom built for this purpose? Thanks. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 4:57 pm Re: Audio taper control?
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| Mark Leonard wrote: |
Andy,
What is an audio taper control? Is it something commercially available, or does one need to have it custom built for this purpose? Thanks. |
Volume pots come in 2 forms - linear and audio taper. Audio taper works best for most music situations. |
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Frank James Pracher
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 6:40 pm
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I've always wondered if Jerry was mistaken or misspoke when he said "500 meg"... That's a REALLY high resistance value for a potentiometer...
Has anyone ever confirmed this?
_________________
"Don't be mad honey, but I bought another one" |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 8:27 pm
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Billy Hew Len was "outspoken" in his dislike of Jerry's foot pedal. Great players can differ aesthetically on the same material. With Hawaiian music, students should not necessarily see the pedal as an ideal. The more the music moves away from its roots, the less Island, and the more Mainland it becomes.
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 8:46 pm
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| David Matzenik wrote: |
| Billy Hew Len was "outspoken" in his dislike of Jerry's foot pedal. Great players can differ aesthetically on the same material. With Hawaiian music, students should not necessarily see the pedal as an ideal. The more the music moves away from its roots, the less Island, and the more Mainland it becomes. |
I read some of those fifteen year old threads from the old forum recently...one specifically on that topic (BHL's comments on whether JBs playing had "breath"). Man alive, things got heated about JB back then! But I think the volume pedal is an inextricable part of the Byrd sound and it boils down to personal taste, whether his use of it is appealing to one or not. He certainly had a smooth touch with it...
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 10:11 pm
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| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I've always wondered if Jerry was mistaken or misspoke when he said "500 meg"... That's a REALLY high resistance value for a potentiometer... |
Maybe he meant 500K ...? I'm not an electronics expert, but I've heard of 250K, 500K, and 1 meg pots. Never heard of 500 meg. |
That sounds right, those are commonly used in guitar wiring. Most I've heard of is 1000K for a volume pedal, and that's rare. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 1 Feb 2018 6:47 am
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JB must have just gotten Meg and K mixed up.
From a post off the Seymour Duncan BB .......
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| Lower value pots cause more treble to be bled to the ground. They also have a tendency to smooth out the response of a pickup. 250k pots are generally used for strat style single coils. 500k pots can be used for hotter single coils over 9k resistance and humbuckers. 1 meg pots aren't used that often and can be used with hot humbuckers since they bleed the least amount of treble. Generally a pickup with more turns of wire on a bobbin will have a higher resistance reading and the tone of that coil will become darker and more compressed. |
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 1 Feb 2018 7:28 am
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Jerry was talking about the potentiometer in his volume pedal. 500K pots have been the industry standard for steel guitar volume pedals for years... Goodrich, Emmons, Sho-Bud, etc. volume pedals. Some of the cheaper "guitar" volume pedals, like Ernie Ball, use 250K.
JByrd said:
| Quote: |
| My volume pedal is also made differently in that the volume INCREASES on the up sweep, not down... Also, I use a 500 meg. Audio taper control all around on both guitar and volume pedal." |
I think he meant that his volume pedal has a 500K pot. And I think he's saying that the pots in the volume pedal and the guitar are both audio taper... Not saying that the pot in the volume pedal and the guitar are both 500K. Most electric guitars have 250K pots (Fender, and a lot of lap steels).
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Mark Leonard
From:
Santa Fe, NM USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2018 8:57 am Received this info from an electronics pro:
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500Megohms refers to the resistance value of the potentiometer. It is important to have the right value that provides a full range of volume control. If the resistance is too large it could cause the volume to surge at the high end of the pedal movement, making subtle changes difficult.
Potentiometers come in two flavors: Linear taper and audio taper. As the name implies, linear pots provide a resistance change proportional to the position of the pot. For example, 1/4 turn = 25% resistance change, 1/2 turn = 50% resistance change. These work fine for lamp dimmers.
But for audio systems, linear pots do not work well because sound amplification is non-linear. Sound systems require a 10x increase in electrical power for a 2x increase in the perceived sound level. Brilliant audio engineers developed non-linear pots to compensate for this phenomenon. You may notice with cheap audio equipment that the volume controls surge sharply at the bottom end and have less affect as you increase them. High quality equipment provides a gradual transition over the full range of the pot. It’s the difference between bad and good engineering. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2018 9:45 am
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I tried for years to get Ray Montee to change that Meg to Kilo on his website quoting JB on his pot choice ... but he never did.
Its 500K ... as Doug et al has said. |
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