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Topic: LeGrande broken screw |
Bob Hoffnar
From: Austin, Tx
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Posted 15 Jan 2018 11:39 am
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I broke the screw head off the screw holding the counterforce in next to the changer. Is this a disaster or will it work as long as it works ? The screw seems to be staying put at the moment.
_________________ Bob |
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Bob Hoffnar
From: Austin, Tx
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Posted 15 Jan 2018 11:42 am
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Next question is how do I get at that screw from behind ? _________________ Bob |
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richard burton
From: Britain
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Posted 15 Jan 2018 1:30 pm
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Is there any length of the broken bolt sticking through on the underside (enough to grab it with some pliers)
If so, remove the pickup (to avoid heat damage) and heat the changer housing with a hair dryer. This will cause the aluminium housing to expand, thus making the broken bolt loose enough to unscrew with the pliers |
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John Swain
From: Winchester, Va
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Posted 15 Jan 2018 2:03 pm
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Bob,FWIW that screw on my earlier Legrande is just a pickup height adjustment. I'd call Billy Knowles for advice. JS |
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Dave Diehl
From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2018 2:57 pm
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That screw just goes through the neck Bob. The neck is cut there to allow for the counterforce unit. It plays no role at all at securing the changer unit to the body so you're OK. You won't be able to see or grab it from the underneath side because it don't go through the counterforce unit. It should be a very short screw but you should have nothing to worry about... more like a cosmetic problem than an operational one. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From: Austin, Tx
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Posted 15 Jan 2018 8:30 pm
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It looks like it is holding the counter force in place. Im going to leave it like that until I see that it isn’t holding. Or fix it when I can be with somebody who has removed necks before. Maybe I will dig out the screw with dental tools if pulling the steel apart is too much hassle. I’ve never taken a steel apart before. _________________ Bob |
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Dave Magram
From: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2018 12:16 am
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Bob,
If you do decide that the screw needs to be removed, there is a tool for this. The usual tool to remove broken screws or bolts is a “screw extractorâ€-- which looks like a reverse-fluted drill bit. (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_extractor)
The first step is to drill a hole exactly in the center of the broken screw (a tricky job that you may want to have a machinist do for you).
Next, the screw extractor is wedged into the hole you’ve just drilled.
Then, using a tap-wrench handle, the screw extractor is turned counter-clockwise to carefully unscrew the broken screw from whatever it is stuck in—in this case your steel guitar.
Good luck.
-Dave |
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Tim Russell
From: Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2018 2:51 am
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There a few machinist tricks to removing sheared off screws like that. If it is simply twisted off and not frozen in place, then it should turn easily if you can get to it.
Judging from the pic, I cannot really determine how deep it is, level of difficulty...but if you are somewhat handy, you could attempt removal.
This video shows how to remove a screw using a piece of rubber and a bit, to "bite" into the damaged head. I think the real difficulty in your case may be how small the screw size is.
However, where there's a will, there's a way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI88ty8qong _________________ Sierra Crown D-10 |
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Dave Diehl
From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2018 7:53 am
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No Bob, that screw only secures the neck to the counterforce unit. That counterforce unit has 4 screws from the underneath side that secure it to the body then has two pins that are fitted tight in the body. That screw only goes into the counterforce to secure that cut piece of the neck. |
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John De Maille
From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 16 Jan 2018 11:11 am
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Maybe if you removed the pickup, you could see what's going on at that point. I do believe, that the screw is a pickup height adjustmentment, like John Swain said.
You might want to press that pin in more. It seems like it attaches the counterforce to the mount.
However, an easy out or screw extractor is definitely needed to remove the remaining screw. Patience and dexterity are needed for this project! |
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Bob Hoffnar
From: Austin, Tx
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Posted 16 Jan 2018 1:06 pm
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Thanks for the help guys ! Dave Diehl has it right. My question is how much trouble am I in and how much trouble it is to fix it. _________________ Bob |
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Jerry Overstreet
From: Louisville Ky
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Posted 16 Jan 2018 1:15 pm
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I got no dog in this hunt and don't know squat about Emmons LGIII's. I did find a photo of the plate containing the screw in question and it is just what Dave Diehl said and requires no attention. Unless it's vibrating, it's purely cosmetic.
Ulf Edlund wrote: |
The LGIII below plays as smooth or maybe even smoother than my LeGrand, and it sounds exceptionally good.
Emmons tone Big-Time!
It belongs to forum member Peter Ivansson and was once owned by Hal Rugg.
These pics show the C-force from above.
Here's a drawing: http://www.emmonsguitar.net/lashleylegrande.htm |
Text in the same post states that the pickup height is fixed on the III and not adjustable.
I would caution anyone trying to remove a broken screw in aluminum. There is no such thing or any such procedure as an "easy out". In all fairness I believe they are referring to a tool brand EZ-out, which is a real misnomer. The name implies that it's a simple procedure that any competent layman can accompish. It's not. Any experienced repair man or machinist can tell you that.
Removing broken screws requires specific measurements and specific tools and a qualified operator of same. I know from many years in the auto repair business, you get one shot and if there's bit drift or the bolt is not drilled "exactly" in the center to a precision sized pilot hole, you've got a mess and subsequent non-repairable part[s]. I've even seen extractors broken off while attempting to remove frozen bolts so now you have a bigger mess. Even bigger when dealing with soft metals like aluminum.
If you don't know what you're doing, leave it alone.
I have seen bolts that have been torqued loosen slightly after the head has snapped off and you can sometimes remove them with your fingers, but that doesn't happen too often.
In this case, if I were to try and remove that screw, I'd try a sharp mini pick and see if it will move. Otherwise, I'd super glue a small drop on a dowel to it and see if it's loose enough to move. It might back out, otherwise I'd stop and leave it be. |
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John De Maille
From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 16 Jan 2018 2:32 pm
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It looks like, that, if you remove the pickup mounting plate, that you might be able to turn that screw down through the neck and out.
And, I agree about the EZ out and screw extractor, that's why I recommended patience and skill to do it. Especially with a screw that small of a diameter. |
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Dave Diehl
From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2018 2:50 pm
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There is no pickup mounting plate. What you're looking at in Jerry's post is the counterforce unit base. The pickups are mounted directly on top of that counterforce unit with adjustment springs under the four screws for height adjustment. Jerry is right Bob, those screws are steel and everything else around it is aluminum so I would be very careful or you'll bugger up the neck around the hole. It will not cause you any problem at all if you do nothing BUT, if you're like me, it'll bug the hell out of you every time you look down on it. That screw should back out pretty easy once you get a hold on it but getting that hold is going to be the problem. Need to think on it but one possible solution may be.... try removing the neck removing the screws from the underneath side and that other screw which is not broken off, lift the neck off that screw and then you should have about 1/8 inch of screw shaft to grab hold of and turn it out. That small pin sticking out of the unit in front of the changer shaft concerns me also Bob. That should not be sticking out like that. Probably would push back in pretty easy but never messed with that before. |
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Doug Palmer
From: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2018 6:21 am Screw broke
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That screw does nothing. I would worry more about the pin in the counter-force unit coming out. Push it back in. If the broken screw bothers you cut a screw head off and super glue it over the hole. _________________ Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com! |
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Bob Hoffnar
From: Austin, Tx
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Posted 17 Jan 2018 7:32 am Re: Screw broke
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Doug Palmer wrote: |
That screw does nothing. I would worry more about the pin in the counter-force unit coming out. Push it back in. If the broken screw bothers you cut a screw head off and super glue it over the hole. |
Whoa ! Doug, Thanks for the heads up on that ! _________________ Bob |
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Erv Niehaus
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2018 9:26 am
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It must do something, otherwise it wouldn't be in there. |
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Lee Baucum
From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 17 Jan 2018 10:45 am
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Erv Niehaus wrote: |
It must do something, otherwise it wouldn't be in there. |
I have to agree.
Were you able to push that pin back in place? _________________ Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Dave Diehl
From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2018 12:35 pm
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When you install those counterforce units you have to cut a section of the neck to allow for the counterforce unit. Then those screws were put in there to secure that small section of the neck down but in all honestly, as Doug said as he should know, he built guitars for Emmons, if they were not there it wouldn't matter. The only time it would is if you were to hang something under that piece of the neck and pull upward on it, that section would bend upward. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From: Austin, Tx
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Posted 17 Jan 2018 1:18 pm
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Upon looking it over and comparing the neck with the counterforce to one without. That screw is there to adjust the pickup height on the non CF neck. On the CF neck it looks like it might not do anything.
Doug knows what he is talking about. And that pin pushed right back in with no problems.
Thanks guys ! _________________ Bob |
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Lee Baucum
From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 17 Jan 2018 1:51 pm
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Dave - When you say "that small section of the neck", do you mean the two narrow sections between the pickup and the changer? _________________ Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Lee Baucum
From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 17 Jan 2018 2:04 pm
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I've got just enough OCD that I would have to glue that screw head back on. _________________ Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Bobby D. Jones
From: West Virginia, USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2018 9:40 pm LeGrande Broken Screw
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It is a NO NO to drill a hole in center of the small bolt and try to use a Screw Extractor to remove it from aluminum. The extractor will make the thin walls of bolt expand and lock the screw in aluminum. About 75% of the time it will make the situation worse, Instead of better.
Some machine companies stock LEFT HAND DRILL BITS designed to remove broken screws from aluminum.
Just thoughts of a guy who seen that mistake to many times. |
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Dave Diehl
From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2018 7:42 am
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Yes Lee. there is a narrow section of a LeGrande neck between the changer and the pickups. This has to be cut in order to install the counterforce unit. |
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Henry Matthews
From: Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2018 11:44 am
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If it were me, I would attempt the screw extraction or get a machinist to try it. If that doesnt work or more damage is done, I would find a screw that matches, cut the head off leaving just barely enough to go into hole and super glue it to where it looks like its still there. Not a fix but at least it would look better. Stuff like that drives me nuts so I would have to cover it or something, lol.
Its probably not tight so I would get a punch and make a dot on top for drill bit, then drill a small hole and use a small screw extractor and just hope it comes out. Oil it good with some very thin oil, wd40 would probably work. If that doesnt work, go to above. _________________ Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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