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Post new topic CITES regulations?
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Author Topic:  CITES regulations?
Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 12 Jan 2018 2:29 pm    
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Can anyone explain what exactly are the issues as it pertains to individuals shipping a used instrument containing rosewood, [genus dalbergia] parts across international borders?

Is documentation required? And how would anyone know for sure what all the components of an instrument are derived from?

F.I., if I wanted to sell a used guitar with a rosewood fingerboard, bridge etc. to a buyer in Canada, what would I have to do to be in compliance as an individual?

I have looked online but most of what I see is in legalese or doublespeak language that I really don't understand and I'm not sure how it pertains to individual owners, sellers and buyers.

Some actual experience and knowledge would be helpful here as I'm considering such a transaction.

Edit: I found some info on this at the online auction site www.reverb.com It appears a form must be applied for from fish and wildlife and a fee of $100 paid for re-export from US to international locations. Rolling Eyes Sad

I'll just leave this here for anyone else interested.
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Barry Blackwood


Post  Posted 13 Jan 2018 11:04 am    
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What if the instrument in question was built before the current (rosewood) restrictions apply? (1992) Confused
https://www.guitarplayer.com/gear/whats-the-big-deal-about-brazilian-rosewood
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 13 Jan 2018 11:16 am    
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I dunno. That's what I'm trying to find out. Also some other wood species like bubinga, mahogany, ebony etc. I'm not smart enough to decode all that.

I guess the safest thing to do is not ship internationally.
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Kim Turnbull


From:
Ontario, Canada
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2018 9:48 am    
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Available information says permits are required from both importing and exporting countries but there are exceptions.

One exception is the 10KG rule (a KG is about 2.2 pounds).

From the Canadian government site: (link attached)
".... that specimens that weigh under 10kg and are traded for non-commercial purposes are outside the scope of CITES controls. Specimen refers to the weight of the rosewood species in the item and not the overall weight of the item. For instance, in the case of a musical instrument transported for personal use, a 12 kg instrument containing 5 kg of parts made from Dalbergia would be outside the scope of CITES controls"

https://www.ec.gc.ca/CITES/9E21FDBF-3F22-4CAA-9417-C656C9DBEDAB/rosewoods-en.pdf

Regarding bubinga, mahogany etc. the attached CITES site lists all the species under their purview.

https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/app/2017/E-Appendices-2017-04-04.pdf

Hope that helps.
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Kim Turnbull


From:
Ontario, Canada
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2018 10:10 am    
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Further to the above and to respond to Jerry's question, my personal experience recently importing a Brazilian rosewood back and sides acoustic guitar to Canada from South Carolina was that no one asked and no form, that I'm aware of, required stating which wood species it was constructed from. Shipped to me via UPS with their standard documentation without issues or problems.
Kim
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2018 12:22 pm    
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Thanks for your input Kim.
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2018 1:21 pm    
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I have an overseas buyer for a guitar with a rosewood fretboard. As far as I can tell I need to file for and get a CITES permit even if it is "pre regulation". It kind of has me scared out. I hate to sell overseas in the 1st place and this just adds to the confusion. BTW: A one use permit is $100
Erv
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Godfrey Arthur


From:
Philippines
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 4:57 am    
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Geeze, CITES rears its ugly head.

All CITES is is another wall to control wood (and ivory) because they are going after gun grips and stock.

Reason many touring pros won't travel with guitars out of CONUS because they have to prove from where the wood came. And then they may be able to bring the guitar out of CONUS, but could have a problem getting it back in.

And the Fish and Wildlife end is to control the ivory looking for ivory on violin bows.

And I think you need a 60 day advanced filing of the permit before you get the permit...Rolling Eyes

In fact if Thomas tends to doubt my posturing, you can see the verbiage written in their own docs as regards grips:

https://www.cites.org/eng/news/pr/2011/20110928_timber_appendixIII.php

Start reading at this paragraph:

"Panama has also requested the help of the other 174 CITES member States to control the trade in their national populations of Dalbergia darienensis and Dalbergia retusa, known as black rosewood or cocobolo."

I'll stop here before I get in trouble.



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Mark Bracken


From:
Pennsylvania, USA
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 6:06 pm    
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Jerry,
I would agree with you that as an individual, it will be wiser to avoid an international shipment of rosewood. It's tough enough for us here at Martin Guitar to comply to all the regulations. If one thing is out of line, the shipment can be held indefinitely, or there could be fines etc. I wish I could give you better info, but I don't directly work with the documentation. If you decide to pursue it, I can try to get some info for you. My advice would be to stay with a domestic buyer.
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 6:55 pm    
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Mark, thank you so much for your offer and input. It does not look like any of the international buyers nor myself are going to pursue the deal. I had pretty much talked all of us out of it, I think.

I really don't understand this stuff well enough to involve myself in such a transaction anyway. I actually don't understand any of it.

I can see putting restrictions on export/import of raw materials if indeed something is endangered or being exploited. After a product has been constructed and already in the marketplace, I just don't see how that presents a hazard.

As in all government regulations, it seems convoluted to me.

Thanks again and Best Wishes to you and the C.F. Martin Co.
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post  Posted 13 Feb 2018 9:07 am    
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I think like with most government agencies they tend to overstep their authority.
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David Mason


From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
Post  Posted 17 Feb 2018 3:52 am    
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What's more scary here is that the people who are supposed to administer this stuff don't seem to have any idea either. I.E, it may slide by, by accident, it may slide by because they like you?, or....(?) I would NOT try to provoke them just to prove what goons they are, but whether there's any review process, or... Guilty until proven innocent? Soul-killer: when the land owners with stands of Brazilian rosewood in Belize got whiffed of this, they burnt down the rosewood and planted palm trees because they know they can, at least, still sell palm oil.
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 17 Feb 2018 5:45 am    
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Mend one thing and break another. The European Union banned lead in musical instruments. The purpose was to ensure lead-free solder in electronic keyboards. Then when it was too late someone pointed out all the church organs with lead pipes for which there is no alternative. Not sure if it's resolved yet.
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