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Topic: String returning sharp.... |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 6:09 am |
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I'm fairly sure that this comes under 'pedal steel 101' but it's beyond me.
When I raise the 9th string on pedal 5 (C6th, of course) it comes back a bit sharp. If I then dab pedal 8 lightly it corrects the problem.
What do you think is going on? Something's hanging up somehow.
(Ooops - LeGrande 111)
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 6:59 am
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Hmmmmm.
Check for unlubed pivot rivets.
Check for ball ends.
SOMETHING is keeping the raise finger from hitting the stop bar.
On some other makes, I'd mess with return spring tension, but not on a LeGrande
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 7:15 am
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That is called "Hysteresis". Strange on the 9th string as I have "return compensators" (factory installed) on all strings that are both raised and lowered but not on the C6th 9th string. I asked Mr Franklin about that he stated it wasn't needed (and it isn't at least on mine).
Along with what Lane mentions, check the nut roller for a flat spot (and lubricate the nut rollers). Possibly the drop return spring adjustment. Its not as easy on a Legrande as it is on guitars with adjustment screws on the end plate.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 7:55 am
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Thanks, gentlemen.
Ermm - what's a 'pivot rivet'? Where is it/are they?
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 8:05 am
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I ALWAYS forget about the roller nuts.
I'll pull up the pictures of a changer and show you where the pivot rivets are.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 8:11 am
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See the changer operation described here
https://www.steelguitar.com/maps/changer.html
The pivot rivet is circled in red, if it gets friction, then the scissors will move instead.
The green line is the other notable friction point, it's where the scissor slides on actual fingers.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 8:15 am
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Oh dear - it's buried deep within the arcane mechanism of the changer assembly!
Wouldn't regular lubrication (sewing machine oil dripped on to the fingers) find its way down there?
Thanks for your trouble, Lane.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 8:27 am
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is when a string is lowered then returns sharp. Your string is returning sharp after a raise.
Possibly the pedal change is over tuned, or something is causing the cross shaft to bind just a tad.(Very unusual on properly set-up Legrande). Or the roller nut needs lub. Since I'm shooting in the dark. I'll guess the roller nut.
And yes it could be binding at the pivot point. Roger that's where the Raise and lower members of the changer are connected by a rivet. A few drops of oil. Rock the pedals several times. Should correct that.
b. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 8:38 am
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I plan to make a video, but if you have an oiler (or spray lube) with a straw, and a light source under the guitar, you can see into the scissor from above. Give it a spritz, and operate both raise and lowers.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 8:38 am
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Roger, it's not that deep. In severe cases. You can remove the return spring. Then by hand, work the raise and lower members back and forth. After lubing. Till they're is no drag. Or a quick fix. Just lower string 9. Doing that moves the pivot more to the right. Kinda gives you a little platform. Making it very easy to drop a few drops of oil. Then work it in by rocking the pedals that raise and lower the string.
b. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 10:12 am
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I dropped oil on top of the finger and also checked the roller-nut. There didn't seem to be any notchiness in the nut and it seemed to be moving smoothly. I rotated it a bit just in case.
Already the problem has lessened - not completely cured but already not so sharp after using the 5th pedal. Maybe it'll be better when I next go to the guitar.
I've now realised that this problem has been frustrating me for a while in that I've long felt that there was a general out-of-tune-ness across my C6th neck. Pedal 5 is so central to the whole set-up that this tiny glitch had been torturing my ears for weeks. Tuning on those fatter strings is so sensitive to bar-pressure as well. I hadn't before really tried to pinpoint the problem - I'm glad I confronted it.
Thanks, everybody, for taking the trouble to help. And, thanks to Bobby and Lane, I now have a glimmer of an inkling as to why they're called 'all-pull' guitars!
Wonders will never cease. Happy Christmas, one and all.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 10:13 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| I plan to make a video, |
That would be great, Lane!
I’ll put in my request for a comprehensive video on general maintenance, or even just on lubrication. There are lots of bits and pieces here on the forum that are kind of hard to put all together. What kind of oil to use, what kind of sprayer, how much oil, where and what and how often.
I figure maintenance of a pedal steel is not that different from taking care of any other machine, and you don’t want to be waiting for something to go wrong before giving it some attention.
If someone could do that video and get it posted as a sticky here somewhere, I would double my membership donation. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 11:55 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| I plan to make a video, |
That would be great, Lane!
I’ll put in my request for a comprehensive video on general maintenance, or even just on lubrication........If someone could do that video and get it posted as a sticky here somewhere, I would double my membership donation. |
Mickey Adams has already put together a steel maintenance video. I haven't seen it but he's generally a thoughtful & thorough teacher. If I was new to steel mechanics, I'd pony up the $$. Understanding and being able to work on your guitar is freedom. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 12:49 pm
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Roger, I'd be willing to bet a dozen holiday doughnuts that it's just a too-loose lower return spring. A raise returning sharp but settling back after engaging a lower is a classic symptom of this. It's the first thing I would check. It's a really simple 3-4 minute fix. Loosen the string, flip the guitar over in its case, unhook the spring and tighten it on the screw (maybe 1-2 turns), reconnect spring, re-tune. You can slip the point of a small slotted screwdriver between the screw head and the end plate to hold it steady while you tighten the spring.
Merry Christmas everyone!
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 1:20 pm
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I call it string gather. On big wound strings, after being raised, the windings will gather on top of the changer which will make it return sharp until it is either pulled on or lowered. Don't know of anything that can stop this completely. Maybe a drop of oil on string top at changer or a compleletly smooth changer surface where string contacts may help. One thing that will really help is put the electronic tuner away. Same thing goes for cabinet drop.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 1:26 pm
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Henry - no electronic tuner was needed in this case. As usual, my ears confirmed it.
For me, tuners are the first step in the restringing process but the final tweaking is down to me.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 1:35 pm
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If it's enough for you to hear it you may have something else going on. I can hear this string gather I call it if I'm just tuning or checking strings but doesn't bother me when I play but it is difinitley there.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 24 Dec 2017 1:48 pm
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It is. If it didn't offend my ear I wouldn't be chasing it.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 25 Dec 2017 7:12 am
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Roger, I have suggestions...Instead of guessing, lets isolate the problem..back off all hex nuts on that string.
Physically hold the lower finger up against the stop, and make sure the open string in tune..Take a small screwdriver head and exercise both the lower and return fingers manually...see which one does not return...It its a lower, all you can do is tighten the lower return spring until either it does seat, or the tension overcomes the lower and activates the raise at the same time..Anything that might have affected the return upstream is negated by the hex deactivation...If its the raise not coming back, there is no adjustment to make, ..The issue resides somewhere in the changer, or the string itself..
You can call me, skype me, text me, ill be happy to help you resolve it...Merry Christmas all..
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 25 Dec 2017 7:21 am
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Thanks, Mickey - that sounds logical.
Christmas greetings to all!
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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