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Topic: 10-string steel! |
Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 19 Dec 2017 6:38 pm |
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| You are so right Stefan, lots of work pays off on E13. I am really starting to feel it. Touch and tone come with time and at a price. Been listening to Vance Terry a lot. Boy he could sure get chords out of seemingly nowhere. Just fantastic bright but still good bass sound. Bigsby thru a Magnatone or old TV front Fender. Superb. No reverb. His bar slams are nuts, sounds like he blends chords and voice leads too. Just starting my 10 string journey, I am feeling more at home with it. Zero in on just one tuning is nice. The E9/Morrell13 tuning is just great. Having to really dig in and find 2 note parts/slants and really internalize them. Got a couple standards going plus couple of songs from my band gig that I am working on. Am definitely using the top F# and bottom B. They are not just there for show. 2 note diad, octaves, and melody a lot easier with extra strings. Having to skip D and F# when not needed is taking some getting used to, but can feel muscles already feeling and visualizing. It's basically E9 pedal steel tuning with a C# stuck in there, and no Eb. Hoping it helps when I have to play E9 pedal. As far as bar, would like to try alternative, but prolly gonna stay with 7/8 steel. Great stuff. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 19 Dec 2017 6:53 pm
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Great to hear you are settling into it.
I must admit though I haven’t found a song where you need to avoid the D/F# yet especially when add fills or soloing couldn’t live without it.
I have caataloged some voicings and standards and songs that people said you can’t play without a pedal steel like Raisin the Dickens that you can play the exact voicings on E13 so feel free to PM me and would love to exchange ideas and voicings.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 19 Dec 2017 7:46 pm 10 string
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| For example, playing straight octaves with low B and high B, low E and high E. I use that in one of my own tunes. Use the D and F# all the time, but when it is not needed, it sticks out like a sore thumb when you bump into them by mistake. That's all I was talking about. But yeah, I may hit you up for some stuff after I get a little time on his thing. It's really great. Thanks for the support. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 2:14 am
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Definitely I'm here if you need.
As I said exchanging ideas gets us there faster. All the great Jazz and Steel legends did it ALL the time. So I'm looking forward to it.
Here is a simple C Major Triad Chord Scale to get you started with the Root on top as the melody note.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 2:16 am
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There are a few other ways to play that scale as well. Love E13 for options.
For example I could play the entire scale in the lower register from strings 6-12.
That's the power of 12 strings vs 10 as well when you need a much lower register for comping.
Then you can switch to a higher register for fills and more prominent steel sound.
The exercise I posted give you the higher register moves so you can use the 10 stringer.
Take note this can be played on strings 1-10 on my tuning. As I said you don't need that high G#. Bin it I promise you it aint necessary if strings are limited.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 4:48 am
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"as well when you need a much lower register for comping. "
Okay, you got me curious Stefan. Who are you comping behind? I've never thought of steel guitar, particularly, as a comping instrument like a piano or guitar. Do you play in a band where steel replaces those traditional comping instruments in a jazz setting? Love to hear what that sounds like.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 4:56 am
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Quite often a large part of what happens in a song is comping at least in Jazz.
When trading fours, when the other instruments are taking a solo, when you need to keep track as to where you are in a song. LOL.
I was recommended some videos from TrueFire by Andy Volk. The sessions from Sheryl Bailey are good as are Frank Vignola.
Those voicingls in their Etudes can be done with a 12 stringer. You need to drop some of the low notes on your 10 stringer.
Its nice cause then when you don't want your steel to be overpowering and more in the background you have options other than the 6th Chord high sound.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:03 am
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I know what comping is. I actually went to Berklee School of Music for a time. I was asking specifically in what situation you find yourself comping behind instruments in a jazz setting with your 12 string. Isn't Sheyl Bailey and Frank Vignola jazz guitarists, not steel players. Jazz guitar is very much a comping instrument. I've never heard steel guitar used that way.
I guess my question is: when do you practically comp with your 12 string when playing with other players. What is the makeup of the band?
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:08 am
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Apologies. Wow Berlkleeeeeeee
We need to catch up. So many questions. Yay Excited.
Ok so Think of a Jazz Trio/Quartet
Fire the Guitar player. Done.
Why not? Thats the goal. It can be done. Checkout the Rhythm Etudes on True Fire from Sheryl Bailey. I think I have notated/tabbed most of them.
But better to transcribe your own so it helps you get familiar with some of the positions/options. Anyway we can have a catchup whenever you are ready.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:22 am
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Why would you fire the guitarist?
"Why not? Thats the goal. It can be done"
It can? I'm not sure it can. I don't see a lap steel replacing a guitarist in a jazz setting, but maybe you've done it. Do you actually play in a trio now? Or is this more theoretical . it doesn't sound very practical to me.
Can I ask if you are mostly a bedroom player, or do you gig often on your 12 string. I'm just trying to get a sense of the practicality of what you are recommending to people.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:27 am
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BTW, I've heard what Sheryl is doing and I think what you are missing is the attack of using a plectrum. You can't really duplicate that attack on a lap steel, and why would you want to. There is a reason that a flat pick and a guitar works well in jazz. I don't see the purpose of trying to imitate what a jazz guitarist can do so well on a lap steel which can't. If you want that sound, start playing guitar. Jazz is more than just the notes.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:27 am
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Bill
I have stopped gigging to focus on studying Jazz for 3 years, (I'm only 1 year in serious study). As I was doing the cliche licks and blues scale most of the time.
So currently Bedroom but hopefully it Will be out in the world soon enough.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:28 am
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When you were gigging, where you playing on a 12 string lap steel? Or something else and what kind of setting (mostly blues based blues and rock, or jazz)?
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:29 am
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| BTW, I've heard what Sheryl is doing and I think what you are missing is the attack of using a plectrum. You can't really duplicate that attack on a lap steel, and why would you want to. There is a reason that a flat pick and a guitar works well in jazz. I don't see the purpose of trying to imitate what a jazz guitarist can do so well on a lap steel which can't. If you want that sound, start playing guitar. Jazz is more than just the notes. |
No thanks. I'll stick with it.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:31 am
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Yeah, no problem. good luck with it. For me, music is about playing with other people especially if you are playing jazz. I need to play out in order to have any interest in practicing.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:34 am
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| When you were gigging, where you playing on a 12 string lap steel? Or something else and what kind of setting (mostly blues based blues and rock, or jazz)? |
I was playing a 12 string different tuning at the time. Before that an 8 string. Before that a 6.
Mainly Blues in London - gets paid gigs and the crowd says "you are amazing just because you play a pentatonic scale but hey you got to give them what they want."
Sometimes they would use some Jazz Changes and I got interested like that.
Sometimes melodic rock, Folk rock, Country played but not much paid work out here in London for that. DJ's took over and killed a lot o0f musicians job's in the 90's here. But people will still PAY for Blues and cheer at a pentatonic scale.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:41 am
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Playing Jazz out here I could mention a hand full of premium venues that Benson and the likes play at everytime they com, like Ronnie Scotts, but for the most part you are lucky if a restaurant will be interested. There was a great Jazz bar in Old Street, Now it only has Jazz once a month and most restaurants use CD's or Digital forms instead.
Jazz is still huge in France though but Blues is huge here in London and aint slowing down. So that should tell you, if playing out was my goal I would've stayed with Blues.
If Jazz is my goal I realise at least here may not be lots of venues to play at so much.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:59 am
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Yeah, in manhattan, we don't have that problem. But why not play with friends? Jazz really is really about communicating with other players. It goes back to my confusion about your comments about comping. . If you aren't playing with other people, there is no one to comp behind. Jazz is a performance music, in my opinion. If you really want to get good at it, you need to play with other people. Regardless if there are paying gigs, there is plenty of enjoyment to be found by meeting once a week in someone's house to jam, invite friends and get better. That would be my one caution to your approach: jazz is a conversation. Hard to have a conversation with one person.
Anyway, I think we've beaten this horse to death. That will be my last post on the subject.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 6:03 am
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Thanks Bill
Great idea and a good shout. Will do.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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