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Topic: best 12 string Universal copedent for beginner onward? |
Gabriel Deknatel
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 1:31 pm |
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Thanks for your help!
Based on my research on this site, I'm planning to get my first and only pedal steel guitar. I've decided to go with a 12 string universal, and I'd like opinions on what's the best setup for someone with no prior knowledge or preconceived notions from playing other PSGs.
In other words, if you could go back in time and know you were going to learn on a U12 and have it be your main instrument, what is the ideal setup?
Ease of learning is a plus, but maybe more importantly, a flexible usable instrument as I progress. How many pedals and knee levers is ideal and what function should they have?
Please fill in with anything else I should be considering. I understand not all will think going with a 12 is the best idea. Feel free to include your manufacturer recommendations as well.
Many Thanks! |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 2:51 pm
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The best setup for a U-12 or any guitar for that matter is a loaded question. I have played the Jeff Newman U-12 setup with a few extra pulls for many years and it works for me. There should be a number of topics here on Jeff Newman's setup.
7 pedals and 5 knee levers is pretty much a standard for a U-12.
I would suggest you approach the E9 side of the guitar at first and ease into the B6 side a little at a time learning chord changes. Also, check out Joe Wright as he approaches the U-12 as one big guitar rather than 2 tunings. |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 2:51 pm
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Double post🤓
Last edited by Len Amaral on 11 Feb 2017 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joseph Carlson
From:
Grass Valley, California, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 3:01 pm
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I would suggest you start with the standard setup and don't make any major changes until you know what every change does and why. That way you can use all of the available instructional materials (both E9, C6 transposed down) and universal.
Once you have a handle on what all of the levers and pedals do you can start make changes and add or take away things.
http://steelguitarforum.com/b0b/jefftune.html |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 3:14 pm
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I don't like the Newman tuning as I think it gives up too much. Somewhere I have a normalish 8&5 copedent. I'll try to find it.
I believe a uni should have all of what people use on both necks, and the Newman gives up two of the standard changes.
I'd add the now-common 1st and 2nd string raise to the P7 or P8 (while keeping its B6th changes), depending on how many pedals, and just double foot that one.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Joseph Carlson
From:
Grass Valley, California, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 3:34 pm
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This guy is just starting out. Over time he can decide what changes are missing and add them, also think in terms of just learning and being able to use the available instructional materials (and also what is out there in terms of used U12 guitars).
But I do agree with your overall critique, that's why I ended up going back to a D10. |
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Gabriel Deknatel
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 3:52 pm
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| Thanks for the input so far! Yes, a complete novice, no preconceptions. But assume I have access to anything that could be requested from current makers. In other words, at least for the purposes of this post, money no object. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 4:19 pm
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Joseph, since hes wanting to start with a universal, by its very nature a complex setup, I see no reason to start stripped down, when a stripped down U12 is still complex.
As we learn, most of us put changes in muscle memory (I hate that term, but it works) so starting out with the intention to alter sounds annoying.
Gabriel, I'll try to put a chart with my ideas in it.
HOWEVER: I might encourage you to look at the new tow from Excel. Instead of a Universal, he's got an 12 string that's an extended E9th with an lever that changes it over to another 12 string C6th.
Fuzzy is a clever dude.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Gabriel Deknatel
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 4:30 pm
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| I'm open to all ideas. Feel free to tell me "just get a d10 dummy"...or extended 12 etc. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 4:51 pm
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What kinds of music move you?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 4:54 pm
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Another vote for the Jeff Newman U12. Not a stripped down tuning at all. I don't know why anyone would say that. Lots of people, Including Jeff, played the tuning for years. Clean, no frills, no clutter. Nothing extra, true, but plenty there to keep you busy for a lifetime. If you don't think so, listen to some of his playing.
If you feel you can't live without the 8th pedal A to A#, then add that. On most brands, an extra pull, an additional couple of kl's even or a pedal can be added down the road if one feels so inclined, but certainly not required.
I played Sierras for a while too. Another workable set-up with E lowers and raises on the left with a lock.
Probably everyone has a different opinion and different ideas. Unfortunately, this is something that you'll just have to figure out for yourself.
I'd look for a builder that has experience building universal guitars. There are certain characteristics that need to be in play for unis.
Williams, BMI, Excel, MSA...new. No longer built and sometimes hard to come by, but a good used model Kline, ZumSteel, earlier generation MSA's "the Universal", maybe Classic XL. I wouldn't go any older than those. Sierra Crown and Session are precision built instruments and have a good history in the universal world, but they are heavy and sometimes hard to find parts for. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 3:52 am
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| Gabriel Deknatel himself wrote: |
| "just get a d10 dummy" |
and I have to admit that was my reaction. Then I wondered if starting out on a uni is such a bad idea. If you're going to start on a D10 and change, you have to get used to the lack of a 9th string D, and the fact that your top string on the C6 is now buried between two others that you have to dodge - so why not get used to all that straight away (besides the fact that half your guitar has shifted down a fret)?
As to the underside, I am firmly convinced that the E lower lever needs to be RKR. If you are going to get serious about using all the B6 pedals this will give you the freedom of movement you require. There will be those who disagree - because they're used to the standard Emmons LKR and swear it doesn't hamper them. Perhaps one of them will post a video demo, as I seriously wish to see how it's done.
I would also go for a Day setup - no problem if you haven't played pedals before. Having the A pedal next to the B6 pedals is infinitely more use than having the C there.
Incidentally, the only illustrations I can find of the Newman setup don't show the physical locations of the levers. I agree with the general principle that it's what they do that counts, but in this case where they are matters too.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 7:54 am
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To eliminate the double-footing of P5 and P7, I think something akin to the Newman might work, but put P5 on the unused LKR
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Dave O'Brien
From:
Florida and New Jersey
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 8:53 am U-12
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I'd recommend Sierra tuning so if you dont like U-12 you can adapt back easily without dealing with the Newman RKR Eb lever.
_________________
Dave O'Brien
Emmons D-10, CMI D-10, Fender Deluxe Reverb, PV 112, Fender Pro Reverb
www.myspace.com/daveobrienband |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 9:48 am
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Dave, I believe you've answered my question about knee lever placement if you're saying that Jeff Newman lowered his Es on RKR.
Lane, call me old-fashioned, but wouldn't a beginner be better off with all the conventional pedals to start with, so that they find out for themselves about the use of both feet? You can never get away from it completely. In any case, you have 5 on a lever, I have 6, and I sometimes wonder about 7 - so whose advice should he take anyway ? 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 10:10 am
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Jeff's not the only one and not the first to put the "splat" pedal in position 4, but his reasoning was that moving across the pedals, 4 to 5 to 6 made more sense than jumping from pedal 8 to 5 or 6 etc. Putting pedal 5 on a lever defeats that whole purpose.
The "normal" pedal 8 was in position 4 on my first professional guitar before my Jeffran class and it's always been there.
But, on your guitar you can configure it any way you want of course. |
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Dave O'Brien
From:
Florida and New Jersey
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 10:17 am U-12
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One of my unis has it like Jerry said, I like the others where they are separated.
_________________
Dave O'Brien
Emmons D-10, CMI D-10, Fender Deluxe Reverb, PV 112, Fender Pro Reverb
www.myspace.com/daveobrienband |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 10:42 am
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Ian, there are oodles of variants on the Uni
He asks for input on a setup that will last from beginning onward. I'm. Not a fan of setting up to change later. Get a pro working setup and change when you think it's not working, but I firmly believe that either 5 or 7 work better on a knee.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 2:34 pm
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Fair enough
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 9:12 am
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| Jeff didn't advocate a LKR lever,,,,although I've never had one on a guitar, to me it seems that a LKR with usual pedal 6 pull on it would be a good choice that I'm thinking seriously about adding. As a matter of fact, I have Jeff's Kline that he played in 1983, still set up exactly as he had it (I've always played the same "Day" set up) so it has worked out well. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 10:11 am
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Put P5 there to eliminate the double-footing.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Gabriel Deknatel
From:
Kentucky, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 10:25 am
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| By the way, I ended up going with a 12 string extended E9th from the used forum. I appreciated the conversation. Thanks for the input! |
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