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Duane Reese

 

Post  Posted 27 Nov 2016 7:52 pm    
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I just did a side-by-side comparison of two guitars, with the same type of pickup installed, on the same neck, with new strings, running into the inputs of the same amp rig — no volume pedal, speaker cabinets as far away as I could get them. All I had to do was pick up my bench and move between the two. I know that you could argue that there are still going to be minute differences between the two, but it was fairest comparison I could arrange — I took out all of the variables I could besides the guitars themselves.

I am not going to say what the two guitars were, or what the results were (that would just start a flame war and we don't need any more of those) but I will say that it's something more people should do if they can. What surprised me most wasn't the differences I could hear, but the differences I couldn't hear, and these were two guitars that most would expect there to be a difference between.

I would need to do this with many more guitars before proclaiming that much of the hype about this or that guitar is emotional and psychological, but I am leaning that way a little more after this test.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 27 Nov 2016 8:40 pm    
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I think that sometimes the different feel of a guitar will make you think that the tone is different. It's tactile. There's a crossover of the senses.
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Duane Reese

 

Post  Posted 27 Nov 2016 8:57 pm    
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I'm sure that there is some sensory crossover, yes. I'd even say that the look can also influence your perception of the sound, but not as much as feel.

Of course I think that reputation and expectation is a major part of all this, but that's getting into the emotional/psychological stuff.

In a way, this says that tone is just one part of it, and it's all about playing a lot of guitars and sticking with what makes you happy.
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Brint Hannay

 

From:
Maryland, USA
Post  Posted 27 Nov 2016 9:16 pm     Re: Guitar A-B Comparison
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Duane Reese wrote:
I just did a side-by-side comparison of two guitars, with the same type of pickup installed, on the same neck, with new strings, running into the inputs of the same amp rig — no volume pedal, speaker cabinets as far away as I could get them. All I had to do was pick up my bench and move between the two. I know that you could argue that there are still going to be minute differences between the two, but it was fairest comparison I could arrange — I took out all of the variables I could besides the guitars themselves.

Technically, there appears to have been one additional variable: the spatial relationships between your ears, the speaker cabinets, and the reflective & absorptive surfaces in the acoustic environment. Better you should keep the seat where it is and put each guitar in the same place.
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Duane Reese

 

Post  Posted 27 Nov 2016 10:20 pm     Re: Guitar A-B Comparison
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Brint Hannay wrote:
Duane Reese wrote:
I just did a side-by-side comparison of two guitars, with the same type of pickup installed, on the same neck, with new strings, running into the inputs of the same amp rig — no volume pedal, speaker cabinets as far away as I could get them. All I had to do was pick up my bench and move between the two. I know that you could argue that there are still going to be minute differences between the two, but it was fairest comparison I could arrange — I took out all of the variables I could besides the guitars themselves.

Technically, there appears to have been one additional variable: the spatial relationships between your ears, the speaker cabinets, and the reflective & absorptive surfaces in the acoustic environment. Better you should keep the seat where it is and put each guitar in the same place.
I moved the speakers as far away as I could to mitigate this problem, but really, when you're only talking about three feet, you're splitting hairs. That won't distort any worthwhile differences in tone between the two.

As for moving the guitars around instead of the seat, the benefit of doing that is far outweighed by the time penalty. There is a big difference between having to compare two sounds a couple of minutes apart instead of about five seconds apart.
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Gino Cecchetto

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 12:10 am    
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So, I don't get why you think saying what the guitars were will start a flame war? You aren't making any claims that one is better than the other, just that they were apparently more similar than you thought they would be. Personally, being that I'm in the market for a new guitar, I would like to know which guitars you compared. This could result in my focus shifting away from trying to figure out which guitar sounds best, or should I say, sounds the way I want it to sound, to features, playability, appearance, etc.
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Tom Gorr

 

From:
Three Hills, Alberta
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 1:10 am    
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I like the differences between my guitars and when I play them I want there to be those differences.

Fessenden D10 w/E66s bright sweet succulent
74 Shobud D10 w OEM SC . Hard rich tone
82 Emmons S12U PP w OEM SC breathy liquid saxophone
MSA S12U w E66s. Bright smooth


Last edited by Tom Gorr on 29 Nov 2016 1:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 3:01 am    
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The other issue is sweet spots and what you were actually playing and where on the fret board.

remember, just for posterity, it is said that E played Danny Boy in F as thats where the GUITAR came to life. He didn't just play it in F, he CHOSE to play it in F for a very specific reason.

A guitar that is wanting to push out LOWS and mids but is limited by the amp or speaker may just come out as typical sounding in comparison with another , thats yet another factor of consideration.

I don't doubt for a moment that each of the guitars sound very similar and very good, but I will say that once you play one or the other on a 4 hour gig, you will notice differences, one will shine while the other may just be regular bright. AND, others may find it totally opposite of what you feel.
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Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 7:03 am    
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Duane, I would likely agree with your experiment. Most guitars are really close as far as the innate sound and tone are concerned, and I think that this is because, basically, they're all so similar in design. But, myths die hard. It's always been my opinion that the vast majority of differences we hear (when we hear different players play) are more due to the players, as well as their amps and what the settings are, than they are to whatever guitar they might happen to be playing. Winking
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ajm

 

From:
Los Angeles
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 8:08 am    
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Unless I missed it, no one questioned the cords that were used. I'll assume that you used the same cord and just moved it from one guitar to the other. Or, if you used two different cords, but they were the same brand and length, the differences should be nil.

Did you record the demos? IMO, THAT is the real way to tell. In the mere amount of time that it takes to move from one guitar to the other, your mental focus can change.

When I bought my Carter back in 2001, it was sent with the wrong pickup (or at least not the one that I thought that I'd ordered). I called them, and Mr. Fabian sent me another one free of charge, told me to try them both, keep the one that I wanted, and send the other back. What a deal!!!

Since I only had one guitar, I couldn't audition them both at the same time. When I would play them, after the time it took to swap them out, they would both sound good. Any differences were arguable due to the time it took to swap them, etc.

I ended up recording both, and mind you, not on a state of the art system. A Shure SM58 into a home stereo cassette deck. I did not move the mic between swaps. I played the same 3-4 minutes of material with both pickups.

Even though the recording was primitive, the differences were much more noticeable. Neither pickup was bad, but one appealed to me more.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 8:14 am    
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Were both guitars the same color?

"Everyone knows, black guitars sound best."<sup> TM</sup>

Winking
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Henry Matthews


From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 8:20 am    
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Point is moot unless we know what guitars were used. Let the flame wars start.
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D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.
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Greg Lambert

 

From:
Illinois, USA
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 8:43 am    
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There are also a lot of player variables. Attack on the strings , pressure on bar , picking position , where the amps are placed in the room just to name a few.
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Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 9:30 am    
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These quotes, both by Buddy Emmons, pretty much substantiated what I had been thinking all along:

Quote:
I have two Legrande III models, one of which I used on Gene Watson's last album. Just for the record, I used a Carter D-10 on Gene's Gospel album and for all practical purposes, I can't tell a dime's worth of difference, but what do I know?


Quote:
Over the years I've had hundreds of players sit down at The Blade and play through my amp with my tone settings and they ended up sounding like they did on their own guitars.


I don't care what brand someone plays, or how much he paid for it. And personally, I've never heard a guitar with a really "bad tone" - but I have heard a lot of players that I thought had a "bad tone", or rather...a tone that I really didn't care for. All the flame wars would likely cease if people just admitted that, as far as tone and sound are concerned, all the dialog that's thrown about is just an opinion, and nothing more. But if someone thinks such-and-such is a "better sounding guitar", that's fine with me.

Gear-heads tend to bore me, as I'm never that impressed with whatever they're using. You wanna impress me? Play something! Cool

Quote:
You can't "buy" the sound, you have to make it.
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Bob Hoffnar


From:
Austin, Tx
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 1:03 pm    
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I would be interested in knowing about your experience with the 2 different steels.


It takes all sorts steels to suit different people and different situations.

For me I use a 67 Emmons and a 64 wrap around Emmons as my main instruments. I prefer the 67 cut tail over all. It suits most all the music I play. But when it comes to playing country music that 64 is just perfect.
Oops... I'm adding this later. I just did a session for a singer songwriter woman and played the 64. It sounded freakin glorious. So much fun to play. You can just keep digging in. Makes it so I can get paid to play the 3 licks I know. Now I like the 64 better.... go figure


When I owned and played both a Franklin and a Rains steel I ended up keeping the Rains because it sounded better to me with the touring and recording work I was getting.

I have been lucky enough to work with a couple mircotonal classical composers in some very demanding situations. The can hear every overtone and its relationship to the sound of all the other instruments being used. It's kinda freakish in a way. They both quickly picked the 67 Emmons as the most suitable over Clinesmith and Rains. This is with them barely knowing what a pedalsteel is.
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Last edited by Bob Hoffnar on 28 Nov 2016 3:09 pm; edited 3 times in total
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J R Rose

 

From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 1:10 pm    
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I am with bOb, Black one's sound better, ha!! J.R.
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Henry Matthews


From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 1:47 pm    
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I play 3 different steels, a 75 D-10 push pull, and 82 D-10 SKH Emmons and a 9? D-10 Fessy. I've had all 3 steels at our Saturday night Opry thru the years and even though I can be satisfied playing any of them, my sound guy says my Fessy sounds best. For our Friday night gig, they say the push pull sounds best. My band guys don't like the SKH because they say it's not clear as other two but to me playing, it gets the best tone to my ears. I use same amp settings all all of them.

I can tell the difference in them easy from the drivers chair. The Fessy is bright sounding, the push pull had more body and mids and the SKH is bassier sounding with more of a bell type tone.
I'm tending to agree with Donnie in that they all sound good, and according to your taste as to which you prefer.

I once heard a great player swap guitars in middle of set from a 67 push pull to a Carter. Out front, they both sounded the same. Not one dimes difference. They were both black too, LOL.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.
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mtulbert


From:
Plano, Texas 75023
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 5:44 pm    
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When I was steel shopping a few years ago I had the opportunity to test drive several different brands of steel on my home recording rig. The settings were all flat to give each steel the chance to show off its particular characteristics. I had a track to use and recorded each one to the best of my ability. Playing the same licks each time really made it a good comparison.

When I finally got the four different steels recorded I went back to listen and was able to switch instantaneously to each brand. I also had a good friend come over and I blind tested the four steels with him as well. Again, no flame war and I will not mention the brands.

Listening to them without the track showed a lot more difference then when they were put back in the track.

It was a good test and pushed and helped me to feel really confident on the purchase that I made at that time.
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Rittenberry Laquer D10, Rittenberry Prestige SD10, Revelation Preamp,Revelation Octal Preamp,Lexicon PCM 92 Reverb, Furlong Cabinet
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Rick Abbott

 

From:
Indiana, USA
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 6:06 pm    
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Surely, there must be a difference between a 1998 Carter and a 1960 Sho~Bud.

One thing I believe to be a difference in tone is how fast the pedal action is. Old, sloppy guitars seem to create a different tone because the notes move and "blend" differently.

Two very modern steels? They sound a lot alike. I really prefer old steels. Just my thing, though I do advocate for Carter...I've owned 4. 2 were really great, 2 were ok. But they didn't sound like the 70's Miller Custom I have now. I wouldn't sell it for $10,000.
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Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 7:21 pm    
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I'm not sure it's a good comparison to set the knobs the same on all the guitars: what matters is how it sounds when it sounds its best.
Most of the modern guitars have a similar vibe:, if you want a different sound,try either a 60s/70s heavy sumbitch, or a Moyo.
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Jason Duguay


From:
Massachusetts, USA
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 8:00 pm    
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Donny has a strong point. & thats why music will always be the coolest thing. You cant buy it. Good tone, licks, whatever. Hours in, talent out, period. Great tone is as easy as turning the computer off and sitting behind your guitar.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 28 Nov 2016 11:27 pm    
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I think that the most important thing about this experiment is that both guitars had "the same type of pickup". I've always felt that the pickup was the most important element of a guitar's tone. After color, of course. Wink
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Duane Reese

 

Post  Posted 29 Nov 2016 8:21 pm    
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Tony Prior wrote:
The other issue is sweet spots and what you were actually playing and where on the fret board.

remember, just for posterity, it is said that E played Danny Boy in F as thats where the GUITAR came to life. He didn't just play it in F, he CHOSE to play it in F for a very specific reason.

A guitar that is wanting to push out LOWS and mids but is limited by the amp or speaker may just come out as typical sounding in comparison with another , thats yet another factor of consideration.

ajm wrote:
Unless I missed it, no one questioned the cords that were used. I'll assume that you used the same cord and just moved it from one guitar to the other. Or, if you used two different cords, but they were the same brand and length, the differences should be nil.

Greg Lambert wrote:
There are also a lot of player variables. Attack on the strings , pressure on bar , picking position , where the amps are placed in the room just to name a few.

There is an infinite number of factors and minutiae that can affect tone, including Jupiter's gravitational pull. I am as guilty of worrying too much about that stuff as anyone, but you don't want to obsess about it to the point where you can't get the job done, and start making music like you should be doing.

My experience with this was that after going back and forth and back and forth between the two, playing the same licks in the same way — or at least as close to the same as it took to satisfy my ear — I was able to get a general sense the character of the two guitars, and I found the differences to be pretty subtle, considering the differences in reputation between the two.

Besides, the most important factor was...
b0b wrote:
Were both guitars the same color?

"Everyone knows, black guitars sound best."<sup> TM</sup>

Winking

b0b, you won't believe this, but they were both black mica! So you see...this was indeed a scientific test!
ajm wrote:
When I bought my Carter back in 2001, it was sent with the wrong pickup (or at least not the one that I thought that I'd ordered). I called them, and Mr. Fabian sent me another one free of charge, told me to try them both, keep the one that I wanted, and send the other back. What a deal!!!
John Fabian was a really great guy. One time I stopped in for some pickups, and he actually offered to buy my BL705s, but they were earmarked for something else at the time.

Henry Matthews wrote:
Point is moot unless we know what guitars were used. Let the flame wars start.
At this point, I think I'm going to sit back and see if spontaneous combustion happens, even without the incendiary details. Razz

Donny Hinson wrote:
Gear-heads tend to bore me, as I'm never that impressed with whatever they're using.

You wanna impress me?
Pffft! Why would I want to impress you?! Laughing No, seriously though, there is way too much attention payed to the equipment than the music, and this problem is not at all a steel player's problem — it's pandemic across all of music.

Bob Hoffnar wrote:
I would be interested in knowing about your experience with the 2 different steels.
It would actually damage my reputation if I disclosed that...

But then...
What reputation? Mr. Green

b0b wrote:
I think that the most important thing about this experiment is that both guitars had "the same type of pickup". I've always felt that the pickup was the most important element of a guitar's tone. After color, of course. Wink
That is right. Bobbe Seymour used to say that a pickup doesn't change the tone of the guitar because, like a singer and a microphone, the singer is going to sound like the same person through any mic you put in front of them; I agree with the basis of that, because what comes out of the speaker is an aggregate of everything in the system, but I have thought for a long time that there is more variation between different kinds of pickups than guitars. I believe this more, now. I bet that's because there is a lot more voodoo than people realize when it comes to winding a pickup.
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mtulbert


From:
Plano, Texas 75023
Post  Posted 29 Nov 2016 8:33 pm    
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Bobby Seymour is not correct in his assumption about a singer sounding the same regardless of the microphone. Try singing through an old Electro Voice RE-15 and a Neuman U-87. The basic voice will sound the same. But the wax will fall out of your ears with the harshness that the RE-15 adds to the voice. Most people sound great through the Neuman. The coloration of the microphone certainly adds to the tone.
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Rittenberry Laquer D10, Rittenberry Prestige SD10, Revelation Preamp,Revelation Octal Preamp,Lexicon PCM 92 Reverb, Furlong Cabinet
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Brint Hannay

 

From:
Maryland, USA
Post  Posted 30 Nov 2016 8:37 am    
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b0b wrote:
I think that the most important thing about this experiment is that both guitars had "the same type of pickup". I've always felt that the pickup was the most important element of a guitar's tone. After color, of course. Wink

I have guitars of different makes, both with Bill Lawrence 710 pickups. One is an older, heavier-bodied SD-10, the other is a newer, lighter-bodied SD-10, both lacquer finished.

When I play them not plugged in, the newer, lighter guitar has a very bright sound and little low end richness (such as low end is on E9th), while the other has a warm, woody sound with much less stringy bite. Both have excellent sustain.

When I play them through the same amp and signal chain, those same characteristics carry through to their amplified sound. They really do sound noticeably different. Amp adjustment could minimize those differences, to the point that I could get "my sound" Razz with either one. But it appears to me that with these two guitars, the differences between the guitars themselves outweigh the sameness of the pickups.
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