| Author |
Topic: Why don't more players play 12string steels? |
John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 2 May 2016 6:05 pm |
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I've been playing a U-12 for almost 13 yrs and I love it. For 27 yrs prior, I played an S-11, E9th tuning with the lower octave E. Lots of stuff to be played on that tuning, but, when I started venturing into the B6th and A6th sides of it, I always missed not having the lower strings. Now, having those lower strings, the transition is so simple and easy. There's no switching necks to change the flavor of a song midstream. Also, if you're into playing power chords and vamping like a 6 strimg guitar, the lower strings are right there.
I must admit that, I've never liked playing a D-10. My arms are short and it's not a comfortable reach. Also, I'm not particularly into jazz. I really like Western swing and country so playing a U-12 suits perfectly. One more item is not having a D note in the tuning. It's not a problem for me because I raise the low 9th string B to a D with a knee lever. The lack of Universal instruction is daunting, but, you can use C6th courses for positioning and pedals. Just remember it's laid out in C and you're tuned to B.
BTW- I'm tuned to Jeff Newmans Universal tuning. |
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Justin Emmert
From:
Greensboro, NC
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Posted 2 May 2016 6:09 pm
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I've only been playing 2 years, but play an ext E9 and just started learning Universal, and i don't really like playing instrumentals.....so, take this how you like....
In a band situation, the lower strings don't seem to cut through the mix, so it's not as exciting. I use them to comp and vamp when other instruments have the lead, but keep the volume down. For a solo pedal steel instrumental, those low strings are nice to have. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 2 May 2016 7:44 pm
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| John Billings wrote: |
I wish you could hear John Hughey's stunning version of "I'm Not Lisa!" I hated that song as a single release, but floored when I heard John's version. The beauty of what he does with the two low strings is wonderful! Both using them as roots and low harmony. Neil Zaza was going to hire a string trio until he heard me play the part on my Kline Uni. High string is Violin, middle string, Viola, 11string is Cello. You can't hear me very well, but I'm there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Puov93SDltM |
Are you saying that Hughey used a 12-string for that? I've never heard of his playing 12-string. Even the "official" Hughey website lists his setup as a D-10. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 May 2016 7:52 pm
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Yes Brint. My band opened for Loretta at Ponderosa Park. I walked into the backstage lounge, and there was John. I freaked! But he put me at ease in just a moment. What a wonderful guy I had my Kline, and as I unpacked it and set it up, he was very interested. He bought a Kline within a month. Not well known, but he did play it.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Earl Briggs
From:
Lancaster tx
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Posted 2 May 2016 10:03 pm 12 string
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| I have played a U12 for 40 Years,and have got everthing i needed out of it.c&w.rock.some jazz.and some other form of music. it is all steel guitar whether 1.2.or 3 necks.......just my opinion..Earl |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 May 2016 12:34 am
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John, it would be nice to hear more clearly what you're doing on that Neil Zaza cut, but when I take my steel player's hat off and put on the engineer/producer one, I think it sits beautifully in the mix  Very tasteful.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Buell Wisner
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 3 May 2016 8:50 am
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| Bruce Derr wrote: |
When I had been playing steel for 4 or 5 years (on an S-10) I ordered a new 12-string. At that time I was using the 9th string D a lot and it never occurred to me to get rid of it. I requested a setup on the new 12 that included the 9th D. It arrived, and after a few months of getting used to having 12 strings, I realized that the D was getting in the way a little. I decided to eliminate it and move the other strings up, but I lowered the 8th E down to D on a KL (the same KL that lowered my 2nd). I found that this "cleaned up" the bottom strings and allowed more C6th-style sounds, thumb strums, etc. and still gave me much of what the open D string used to provide. I eventually found that it also had its own unique benefits, such as sliding into 7th chords on 8, 6 and 5.
Unlike C6, the standard E9 open tuning has many close intervals in its bottom half, and if you find, as I did, that that's not to your liking, taking the open D off is an option worth considering, whether using a 10 or a 12.
As for low notes, I have seen other "D-less" 10-string setups that skip down to a low E on 10, rather than a low G# or A. |
Apologies in advance for getting off-topic in this thread.
Thanks, Bruce! Those are cool thoughts, and it sounds like you were at the same place then that I am at now. Putting the D on the KL for the 8th string actually might work for me (and obviate an ext E9 instrument). For my current level of incompetence, I find the back to back flat 7ths at 7-8-9 to be overkill.
On a 10-string, that would allow the B to be 9th (hurray for "power chords"), the low E on the 10th string would give you what Eric Heywood (Son Volt, Jayhawks, Ray Lamontagne, et al.) has on his 11th string. That would help with playing rock/blues, I think.
I'll definitely think about this once I feel comfortable enough to change the copedant on my Williams. That might be a couple of years away, maybe after the Pedal Steel Mechanic video. 
Last edited by Buell Wisner on 4 May 2016 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 3 May 2016 12:59 pm
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| Kinda wished I wouldn't miss the low strings on my U12 so I could play a D10 and be happy. I think the C6 10 string neck sounds better than most U12s in the B6 mode. It may simply be for the reason a C6 is voiced higher. On the other hand I think I'd find the weight of a D10 objectionable. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 3 May 2016 8:14 pm
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Jim- the answer is....get a D12.
Do they still MAKE them??
KM
_________________
Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 4 May 2016 12:38 am
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| Jim Pitman wrote: |
| I think the C6 10 string neck sounds better than most U12s in the B6 mode. It may simply be for the reason a C6 is voiced higher. |
When I swapped to B6 tuning on the back neck (in readiness to convert to U12) I checked the string gauges and discovered that according to whatever chart or calculator you use, they were in fact already correct. This makes me think that the usual C6 setup may indeed be strung a little tighter relative to the E9, causing it to sound a little brighter. Just a theory. That'll be 2 cents please.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Don Sulesky
From:
Citrus County, FL, Orig. from MA & NH
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Posted 4 May 2016 5:41 am 12 strings
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I just had a 12 string built for me because I thought I would like the extra tuning and strings.
After struggling with it for 2 months I sold it back to the builder.
I found after playing 10 strings for over 40 years it was too much of a challenge to retrain my 74 year old mind.
And I really didn't need a 4th pedal steel.
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Co-founder: Florida Steel Guitar Club
"Steel guitar is like playing chess in the dark with three players". Jeff Newman quote from 1997 seminar |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 4 May 2016 7:03 am
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Why don't more players play 12string steels?
To me, the strings seem too close together. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 4 May 2016 7:38 am
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It all comes down to... F250?... or, Corvette???
S12U is the Corvette of PSG tunings.
There are simply tons of 10-string Steels available on the new/used market, compared to 12-stringers.
That is the reason more newbs don't buy/play them.
If you didn't start on a 12 relatively early in you playing, you probably won't be able to make the switch for reasons listed. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 4 May 2016 8:36 am
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I found the switchover to be very easy. Bought my Kline, but played the Shobud D-10 at that night's gig. Woodshedded on the Kline all the next day, and played it at that night's gig. Nothing fancy, but did use the 2 new strings. I had no trouble with string spacing, and just played it as an Extended E9th for a while.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 4 May 2016 9:15 am
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| Jack Hanson wrote: |
Why don't more players play 12string steels?
To me, the strings seem too close together. |
On some 12 string guitars, the strings are closer together, but not on all. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 4 May 2016 9:51 am
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| Jack Hanson wrote: |
| ...To me, the strings seem too close together. |
They've been too close together since Buddy Emmons decided to build 10-string guitars using necks built for 8-strings. 10-string guitars are already too closely spaced. |
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Adam Tracksler
From:
Maine, USA
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Posted 4 May 2016 12:25 pm
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I think I'd like a U12, but here in Maine, it's a PSG wasteland, my teeny house and budget would mean I'd have to sell the D10 to try a U12, which would be fine if I loved the U12, but if I didn't I'd really miss my D10....
Maybe someone would want to do a guitar swap for a month or so.... |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 May 2016 8:14 pm Re: Why don't more players play 12string steels?
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| Why don't more players play 12string steels? |
It's easy to get mixed up in the middle of the 12 string array. 10 strings are hard enough. 12 string necks are intimidating.
For 30 years I played 12 strings, believing that it was necessary to get the range I needed. But now I'm getting almost that same range from 8 strings (low E to high G on open strings). I no longer believe that more than 10 strings are necessary for range. It's easier to play 10 strings than 12.
So the question I've been asking lately is, "why do you need 12 strings?". Most of the answers have to do with specific licks on legacy records. My response is "why do you have to play it exactly like that?".
I believe that limitations spawn creativity. Even a 6-string lap steel has infinite musical possibilities. Play an instrument that's comfortable for you.
| Quote: |
| And why don't more builders make them? |
Because most customers are uncomfortable trying to play them.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 May 2016 8:18 pm
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| Jack Hanson wrote: |
Why don't more players play 12string steels?
To me, the strings seem too close together. |
The string spacing is the same as 10 strings on every 12 string I've seen. It must be an optical illusion.
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 4 May 2016 8:19 pm
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| chris ivey wrote: |
| if you can play like maurice anderson, david wright and jeff newman the 12 string is all you need. |
Amen to that!
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Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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Tom Campbell
From:
Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 5 May 2016 5:13 am
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I have three 12 string Sierras'. I use the 10,11,12 strings for bass runs when "laying-out"...nothing more.
If I had to do it over again I would go with a S-10 in a "heart-beat". But, at the moment I have too much invested the in the 12 string steels to make a change.
I agree with Bob; you can play most everything needed from a steel, on an eight string, (with or with-out pedals)! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 5 May 2016 5:56 am
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To me, the 12-string is a way of compacting two necks into one, and the range is a consequence of that, not an end in itself.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 May 2016 8:30 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| To me, the 12-string is a way of compacting two necks into one, and the range is a consequence of that, not an end in itself. |
That was the goal of my 8-string as well. I was about 75%* successful. Do we really need 4 more strings to get that last 25%? My next guitar will be an S-10.
*not a scientific estimate
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 5 May 2016 10:35 am
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| I agree with b0b. Ive played 12 strings for at least 15 years. .. but having indulged in 10 string necks for the past year or so I feel at least 10 percent reduction in the burden of complexity... also not a scientific measurement...lol. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 5 May 2016 10:47 am
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With all due respect, I find that the extra string and extended bass range is not just helpful, but essential for my endeavors. Of course, my interests and goals are not typical of most steel guitarists. But I could not achieve those goals if I only had 10 strings.
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http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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