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Author Topic:  Killing Win10 on my laptop - UPDATE
Richard Sinkler


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aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 24 Jan 2016 12:23 pm    
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Killing Win10 on my laptop (which was my main computer. I am going to make my Win7 desktop my main computer. I am having a problem with after doing your login, the screen turns black and stops right there. Sometimes Win10 won't even boot up. Using my repair disk will allow it to boot up and work. So, now I am going to make the leap to Linux on that computer. If I don't like it, I'll just put Win7 back on it. I am fed up with Win10, and Micro$#!t in general. If Linux works and I get the hang of it (I see there is quite a learning curve), My desktop will become a Linux computer too, well, maybe (depends on how successful I am with running the Windows programs I need, maybe using Wine). I need to see if I can get what I want off the hard drive first. I have a case for using a 2-1/2" drives off a USB port, and will try hooking it up to my desktop, and transferring those files (if I am successful). I do have them backed up, but it will be a hassle to get them from the backup, and not sure if recent stuff is backed up yet.

I downloaded Ubuntu, and will try that. A friend uses Linux Mint, and really likes it. Does anyone have any other recommendations, or comments on the two I mentioned?
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Last edited by Richard Sinkler on 21 Feb 2016 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mitch Drumm

 

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Post  Posted 24 Jan 2016 1:29 pm    
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Linux Mint is usually regarded as the least difficult transition for someone coming from Windows with little or no prior Linux experience.

There are flavors of Mint which differ in how the standard desktop would look and the included software packages. The most prominent flavors are probably Cinnamon and Mate.

I chose Mate because it had a somewhat different software package than Cinnamon. The difference may not matter to you at all.

You'll probably want to find other Mint-compatible applications to replace those included with the basic install. For instance, I use a different file manager than the default. It takes quite a bit of research to pin down the better-regarded applications for your various tasks.

There's a good Mint forum here:

http://forums.linuxmint.com/index.php

I haven't spent nearly as much time on Mint as I should--pure procrastination.

Like you, I'd like to ditch MS operating systems entirely as I don't like the path MS is taking and Win 7 won't be supported forever.

You can run Mint off a USB stick if you want. You might try that to evaluate a few flavors. But for serious use, you'll want it on a hard drive.

Libre Office is a pretty good replacement for MS Office.

You can fairly easily get your desktop to look similar to Windows, but that's not even half of the battle.

Bigger problems are understanding the folder structure and finding/learning applications and methods that will do what you used to do on Windows--playing music, playing video, backing up data, backing up Mint, upgrading applications, folder navigation, etc.

Figure on a few dozen hours to do basic research and install Mint on a hard drive.

If you can spend an hour a day for maybe 3 months on Mint after installation, you'll probably be over the hump and never look back. Unfortunately, I haven't yet done that myself.

I'd bookmark as many Mint or Linux tutorials as you can find. That's probably a major help if you don't have a Linux-savvy friend/tutor or access to a class at a JC or something like that.

There are hundreds of Linux "user groups" around the country and undoubtedly many in the Bay Area. You should easily be able to find them, but it's another question entirely on how useful they would be to a newbie who is purely a home user with no interest in system administration or a Linux career.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 24 Jan 2016 2:27 pm    
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I've probably already spent about fifteen hours in research. Lot's of good videos and webites.

I stumbled on a good video about why windows is so vulnerable to viruses and stuff, why linux is so secure. Pretty interesting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CrvKyR9DGUY
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Dave Potter

 

From:
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Post  Posted 24 Jan 2016 5:22 pm     Re: Killing Win10 on my laptop (which was my main computer)
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Be careful about making hasty decisions. MS Windows might be a PITA in your current situation, but alternatives might prove to be worse. Don't win the battle, but lose the war. Windows isn't the leading OS because it's weak. And Linux would be preempting Windows if it was superior. Just sayin'

Caveat Emptor.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 24 Jan 2016 8:50 pm    
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Even if I don't like Linux, I can always change back, but I will only reinstall Win 7. To hell with Win 10.
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Jack Stoner


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Post  Posted 25 Jan 2016 3:21 am    
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Win 10 should not be installed on older hardware that really cannot properly support it.

However, Start10 is available that makes Win 10 look like Win 7. I used Start8 on Win 8/8.1 for that reason but did not go with Start10 on Win 10.

http://www.stardock.com/products/start10/
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Charlie McDonald


From:
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Post  Posted 25 Jan 2016 3:48 am    
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Windows does seem to have a big hole in the back door that makes it vulnerable, something I understand Mac doesn't have,
that makes it convenient for Microsoft; and I've heard that MS became popular with the government--data mining and all--
for that reason. It may just be a rumor, urban myth, whatever, but the story is out there.

For whatever reasons, Windows is popular, it's a dominant force, and popularity wins.

I'm lucky that I like Win8 for my humble purposes and put up with its dominance and insinuating tactics.

What I like about Microsoft is that Bill Gates parlayed it into something that supports the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation
and that Warren Buffet and other billionaires contribute to for altruistic reasons, using privatized funds to do things government can't.
(That story was on 60 Minutes last night.) End of editorial comment.
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Georg Sørtun


From:
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Post  Posted 25 Jan 2016 6:57 am    
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Charlie McDonald wrote:
Windows does seem to have a big hole in the back door that makes it vulnerable [...]
All Operating Systems have such vulnerabilities, but Windows is the most wide-spread and therefore (from hackers viewpoints) the most "interesting" OS, and Windows also has more easy exploitable "holes" than any other OSes I know of.

Charlie McDonald wrote:
What I like about Microsoft is that Bill Gates parlayed it into something [...]
...is what I have found to be a pretty "twisted" tale that I personally don't like the look of. One of several reasons I would not sign an NDA with Microsoft years ago.


Anyway, new Windows versions need new and increasingly capable hardware to run on - same as new Mac OSes, while there is always a Linux variant/version available that can run on older and (much) lighter hardware. Question is if the software one wants to use is available for a chosen OS.

I run multiple OSes on multiple, interconnected, machines, that (mostly) share interfaces (screens, keyboard, etc.), and now and then I just have to add some new hardware to the set-up to keep up with new OS versions - no way around that.
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Scott Duckworth


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Post  Posted 25 Jan 2016 8:37 am    
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My two "go to" sound softwares for Linux are Audacity and Audacious.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 25 Jan 2016 8:53 am    
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Jack Stoner wrote:
Win 10 should not be installed on older hardware that really cannot properly support it.

However, Start10 is available that makes Win 10 look like Win 7. I used Start8 on Win 8/8.1 for that reason but did not go with Start10 on Win 10.

http://www.stardock.com/products/start10/


I had it installed on a Win7 laptop that was completely compatible for Win10. It wouldn't install on my older Dell desktop, because my processor wasn't compatable.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 25 Jan 2016 9:11 am    
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[quote="Charlie McDonald"]Windows does seem to have a big hole in the back door that makes it vulnerable, something I understand Mac doesn't have,
that makes it convenient for Microsoft; and I've heard that MS became popular with the government--data mining and all--
for that reason. It may just be a rumor, urban myth, whatever, but the story is out there.

I have read that in several articles as well as YouTube videos.

For whatever reasons, Windows is popular, it's a dominant force, and popularity wins.
as well as marketing power. One of the reasons I hate MS. They caused some of my favorite applications to go out of business.

I'm lucky that I like Win8 for my humble purposes and put up with its dominance and insinuating tactics.

What I like about Microsoft is that Bill Gates parlayed it into something that supports the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation
and that Warren Buffet and other billionaires contribute to for altruistic reasons, using privatized funds to do things government can't.

Yeah, that's cool, but still hate MS. Not real fond of Apple either, although I do realize that many love them, and their OS is probably a lot more secure than Windows.

(That story was on 60 Minutes last night.) End of editorial comment.
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Jack Stoner


From:
Inverness, Fl
Post  Posted 25 Jan 2016 10:27 am    
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What Microsoft says as being "compatible" is questionable at times. The PC hardware may work on Win 10 but how well it works can be an issue. Microsoft likes to push that a low amount of RAM is "minimum" but in reality much more is real life minimum.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 25 Jan 2016 8:24 pm    
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My laptop shouldn't be the problem. It's only 2 years old. Intel i3 dual core, 2.1ghz processor, 8gb ram. The problems started when I wanted to put a larger hard drive in it. I read in multiple articles on the internet, that your recovery usb flash drive should reinstall Win10 on a raw hard drive (clean install). When it was installing, the install crashed. It had put 3 partitions on by that point. After that, Win 10 wouldn't install. Win7 wouldn't install. I used the dos command part disk, and the other subsequent commands to "clean", and get rid of the partitions. Win 10 still wouldn't install. Now the hard drive is a useless paperweight. No Windows version will install on it. Haven't tried Linux yet. I'm just sick and tired of MS pulling crap like forcing you to upgrade. When they know that they put out a really crappy OS, they should support it indefinitely instead of forcing you to upgrade to another POS they put out. I actually was kind of liking Win10. The original hard drive might still boot to Win10. But MS has left such a bad taste in my mouth since 1990, windows 3.0 was current at that time.
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Jack Stoner


From:
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Post  Posted 26 Jan 2016 3:17 am    
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It sounds like you just have it in for Microsoft rather than taking a look at what you are trying to do. There was something flawed in your procedure, as it works for most.

I'm not saying Microsoft OS is the next best thing to "girls" but its not as bad as some think. Switch to Apple and pay 3 to 4 times as much for an equivalent Apple PC with the same hardware.
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Charlie McDonald


From:
out of the blue
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2016 5:41 am    
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Georg Sørtun wrote:
Charlie McDonald wrote:
What I like about Microsoft is that Bill Gates parlayed it into something [...]
...is what I have found to be a pretty "twisted" tale that I personally don't like the look of. One of several reasons I would not sign an NDA with Microsoft years ago.

Let's just say I'm optimistic/Pollyannaish and hope that Warren Buffet isn't so easily influenced.

Bottom line, I agree with Richard; a two-year old laptop shouldn't be obsolete.
Jack raises some good points. Still, MS could have done better, mismanaging in order to benefit themselves, killing the competition.
I hope the less good raises a lot of money for folks who've never seen a computer and need a hand-powered radio to join the world.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2016 8:48 am    
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Yes Jack, I do hate MS. But that won't stop me from using their operating systems. If they work like they are supposed to.

How could my procedure be wrong. When I upgraded to Win10, I immediately made a repair CD and a USB flash drive, just like MS tells you to do. My understanding, from everything I have read from MS and other sources, is that if you want to do a fresh install, you use the recovery drive. I have actually tried the repair disk too out of desperation. And, I don't think the computer is to blame, as I have 160gb drive from a dead Dell laptop, with XP on it, and everything works fine.

Really, I don't want to totally ditch Windows. My ideal setup would be my laptop with Win10. That is my main computer, or it was. That hard drive is too small (320gb) and I need more room. I have an external drive, but some programs that I tried to install there won't run from there. Just my music and video files are about 100gb. I have Zune MP3 plyaer, and for some reason, the software wants your files on the C drive. I would like to have a dual boot Windows/Linux on my desktop. I have 2 hard drives in there, and could devote one drive for each. I haven't tried it yet, as I have read and watched videos from who say dual boot systems are trouble waiting to happen. I just have to get the courage to do it. For most of what I do on the computer, I think linux is going to be challenged, as the programs are Windows programs with no Linux equivalents. I use Dreamweaver a lot, and have searched for a similar program that is comparable, even though I have to hard code some things that Dreamweaver doesn't do so well.

My biggest beefs with MS are the vulnerabilities via backdoors, and unwillingness to close them. Releasing programs they know aren't solid because they have a target release date, and will not miss that date if at all possible. That was told to us at a seminar with a Microsoft rep as one of the speakers. That is why you have so many updates to fix bugs and security risks. Back in the early 90's when I was going to programming school, MS came in to get the school to use the MS C compiler as there teaching platform. We were mainly using a Unix C compiler and the C compiler by Borland was used in some classes. Our teacher told us about this and that the school rejected their offer, even though they would give school the software, for about 30 computers, for free as a marketing move. I did try the MS compiler as I had both MS compiler and Borland at home. Borland was much faster.

I just don't like Microsoft's business practices and the marketing power they have because of their money. Not to say others aren't the same way. Apple is another one. As you mentioned, Macs are too expensive because they won't allow them to be cloned. And I heard that all the hardware is propietary, so you have to buy Apple parts. I don't know how true that us.
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Dave Potter

 

From:
Texas
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2016 9:06 am    
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Richard Sinkler wrote:
My laptop shouldn't be the problem. It's only 2 years old.


Sounds like it should work, although at the lower end of the capability scale. I have to go with Jack, though. The things you've tried to do are fairly technically involved, and I know from experience that unless it's done correctly, it can go south quickly, and the step-by-step to do it right isn't always available, or understandable.

If your recovery drive is corrupt, that would mean failure before you even got started. At this point, it sounds like your new hard drive is corrupt, as well. I'd be looking for some kind of quality paid drive maintenance software, that can fix those things outside of Windows - I never thought much of the Microsoft DOS-level geek utilities.

Quote:
I'm just sick and tired of MS .. forcing you to upgrade. .. I actually was kind of liking Win10. The original hard drive might still boot to Win10. But MS has left such a bad taste in my mouth since 1990, windows 3.0 was current at that time.


It's mostly PC users (MS's customers) who drive new OSes. Users want fancier, faster computers, more this, more that, to the point that the OS current at the time can't deliver. Technology provides us better hardware, too, but the current OS may not be able to use it to its potential. Remember the first IBM PCs with their whopping 16KB (yep, that's KB) of RAM? Pretty hot stuff, right? Look at todays hardware - my current PC has 32Gigabytes of RAM, 2 million times as much, if my arithmetic is right. It took a few new OS iterations to make that possible, and the same goes for other kinds of hardware improvements.

I do agree about "forced upgrades/updates". I don't like the way MS is handling the Win10 implementation, but they have the right to make their own business decisions. No one is "forced" to move to Win10, however, if they're willing to use software that will eventually be orphaned, with the capability to run only obsolete hardware and get no support for security updates. Who wants that? And what happens when the hardware eventually goes Tango Uniform? What then? Chances are that "new" obsolete hardware to replace it won't even be around anymore.

But I have to agree with Jack that if one is willing to make an effort to use Windows correctly and not have unrealistic expectations, it'll work out OK most of the time. I've been at this since before Windows, in the wild and wooly DOS era, so I have a little history with MS too. And I've painted myself into a corner like you are a few times. It's no fun, but I usually learn something I didn't know before.


Last edited by Dave Potter on 26 Jan 2016 9:31 am; edited 2 times in total
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Dave Potter

 

From:
Texas
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2016 9:18 am    
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Richard Sinkler wrote:
I have Zune MP3 plyaer, and for some reason, the software wants your files on the C drive.


Not sure what you're saying. I have an (orphaned) Zune too, and the Zune software is on my C: drive, but my music is on a different drive, and it works fine - I just have to tell the software where to look.

I can't remember if the Zune software HAD to be on drive C: or if I could have installed it elsewhere, but it only occupies 106MB - not usually a big deal wherever it is.

Quote:
My biggest beefs with MS are the vulnerabilities via backdoors, and unwillingness to close them.


I think you're overstating it, but, to the extent that's true, a NAT router goes a long way to carrying that load. The "sniffers" and the rest of the hacker arsenal on duty 24/7 out on the web, looking for fresh meat and low-hanging fruit, don't even know your PC is online. The router refuses any attempt to access your system - it's invisible to them. What's not to like? Works for me.


Last edited by Dave Potter on 26 Jan 2016 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2016 10:09 am    
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My Zune program, when I installed it on my laptop, barked at me when I put the path to my external drive as my music, video, and picture location, and the error told me the files needed to be on the C drive. But I kind of think now that just one of the locations you list (as you know, you can have several) has to be on the C drive. I could try moving my music files back to the external and have a small folder with a couple files in it on the C drive.
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Wiz Feinberg


From:
Mid-Michigan, USA
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2016 10:22 am    
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Richard Sinkler wrote:
My Zune program, when I installed it on my laptop, barked at me when I put the path to my external drive as my music, video, and picture location, and the error told me the files needed to be on the C drive. But I kind of think now that just one of the locations you list (as you know, you can have several) has to be on the C drive. I could try moving my music files back to the external and have a small folder with a couple files in it on the C drive.


That's probably because it is coded to place user files under C:\Users\{your logged in name}\%AppData%\Zune\

That is standard operating procedure for Windows software. Some programs may or may not allow you to change that during initial setup. The program's operating files go into (C):\Program Files\ while user created files go under %AppData%. This is how Windows installations work.
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Dave Potter

 

From:
Texas
Post  Posted 26 Jan 2016 12:29 pm    
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Richard Sinkler wrote:
My Zune program, when I installed it on my laptop, barked at me when I put the path to my external drive as my music, video, and picture location, and the error told me the files needed to be on the C drive. But I kind of think now that just one of the locations you list (as you know, you can have several) has to be on the C drive. I could try moving my music files back to the external and have a small folder with a couple files in it on the C drive.


This piqued my curiosity, and obviously, I have way too much spare time, so I tried an experiment. I uninstalled the Zune software, and re-installed it to see if other-than-C drives are options. They are. The first install dialog offers the option to install somewhere else:



I chose to use my internal drive E, which I use as an alternative to C for some of my applications to avoid needless population of my boot drive. I created a new folder named Zune in the root of the drive, and clicked "Next".



The install was normal. The Zune software is on my Drive E: and my music is on my Drive I. I ended up with a bunch of annoying duplicate songs, but I can deal with that some other time - I use my phone for music storage mostly now anyway. I don't plan to experiment further to see if it will install on an external drive, but I'd be surprised if it wouldn't.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 27 Jan 2016 4:59 pm    
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I couldn't get Zune to work on my external drive, so I had to install it to the C drive. And having to put my audio and videos on the C drive, ate up so much space. If I can get that to work on my external, drive I probably won't have to put a larger drive in the laptop.
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Dave Potter

 

From:
Texas
Post  Posted 27 Jan 2016 6:02 pm    
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Richard Sinkler wrote:
I couldn't get Zune to work on my external drive, so I had to install it to the C drive. And having to put my audio and videos on the C drive, ate up so much space. If I can get that to work on my external, drive I probably won't have to put a larger drive in the laptop.


Yeah, I just use my C drive for my OS and system-related apps, not for data. I have a 5-hard drive bay installed, so data storage isn't a problem. Multi-media stuff definitely goes into one of those drives.

Not sure if Zune has problems with external drives - haven't tried it.
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Richard Sinkler


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aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 27 Jan 2016 7:31 pm    
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On my desktop, I have Zune and the music files all on the C drive. But that is a 1TB drive. I may just use Zune on the desktop if it won't work from an external. I do have several programs installed on the external, and they work fine. I need to get my motivation back and take care of these things I have going on.
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Jim Priebe

 

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Post  Posted 28 Jan 2016 8:30 pm    
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Richard, I sympathise with you with your ongoing problems however I have a couple of suggestions that may or may not be applicable to your problems.

Quote:
And, I don't think the computer is to blame, as I have 160gb drive from a dead Dell laptop, with XP on it, and everything works fine.


This line sparked my interest. So many times you and others (including me) blame this and that and usually Microsoft when often, embrassingly, it turns out to be something quite different.

One point no one has mentioned is regarding the ePROM or BIOS on the mainboard of your laptop. I have found that some of the "name" brand particularly laptops have mainboards specially 'batched' just for them and that particular laptop. These also seem to contain (sometimes) locked in 'knowledge' that they must only work with the OS that is supplied with (and only by the brand) them AND even the correct hard drive I have encountered. To get around this may require a BIOS update which may or may not be released by the manufacturer (with your track record Richard - don't you try that lol !!!) OR getting a generic BIOS for the board (almost impossible).

To demonstrate this point I had a Toshiba laptop which I needed to put back to Window XP Pro (from Vista) so the user could do midi files the way he was familiar with. NO WAY - just would not load anything other than the Toshiba recovery. I had a similar one with a HP. This is not a negative criticism it is just a fact and the way 'they' have chosen to do it. With your Dell, I have no way of confirming this without a lot of detail about the unit.

So your hate session with MS may only be giving you the ulcers. No, Windows is not perfect, but none of the others are either in fact I have more ulcers over dealing with Linux - especially servers - I have to admit.

So, Win 10 from MS may never actually be a compatible update - you may have to get it (the custom one) from Dell to achieve the update - could be worth checking that avenue if you want to go to 10.
Bobby Bare said the're ain't no 10's ?? didn't he?
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