What's this wood neck bolt on Emmons worth?

Jeff Metz Jr. · From: York, Pennsylvania, USA

Here are some slightly more detailed photos. I went to examine the guitar in person the yesterday and heres what I saw. I does need a total disassembly of the changer. Its probably them most disgusting changer I have ever played eyes on. The guitar wasn't remotely in tune, leading me to believe that it hasn't been played in a long time. The finish checking is much worse than the previous photos had shown. Here what do you think?

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Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Needs a complete disassembly and cleaning. No telling the condition of the cabinet besides the checking but those decals coming off will mar the finish no doubt. New fretboards are in order as well.

But getting it operational is the major job and the first priority. Lots of hours are involved in that messy job. Many paper towels. A lot of the cost would depend on if you know how to disassemble and reassemble an Emmons Original. I've done it several times, so it's not an impossibility. Wink

A major cabinet builder quoted me 500 on a refinish job, so the buyer might consider that as part of the expense. Fretboards would be another 80 bucks, probably.

But no way it's worth 3k in that condition, IMHO. OTOH if that's your dream guitar and worth possibly putting another couple grand-plus into it, it could be a very cool guitar.

Sometimes going underwater on an instrument... that is, bringing it back to life even if the cost of doing so totals more than current market value... is demanded by the Universe. Restoring such a guitar would be adding value to the world of steel guitar in general.

When people add value to the world, they are rewarded. Perhaps not immediately, and perhaps not monetarily, but it definitely will happen. Like when it's all finished and you sit behind it for the very first time.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

pesonally, i'd go explain to the owner why it's worth no more than $1000 then fix it up to my liking and have a great steel for not too much.

John Brabant · From: Calais, VT, USA

I agree with Chris Ivey. If it were down the road, I would offer $1K. I would photo document everything and tear it entirely down and have a fun project to work on. Refinishing the cabinet should be the easiest part. Cleaning up the metal parts will be good stuff to do while listening to some good music at the workbench. The biggest pain will be reassembling and getting everything timed just right. You will be a push-pull expert and will know that guitar inside and out when you are done.

To have someone do the work for you would be quite a few bucks. It needs to be a labor of love for sure.
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John Brabant
1978 Emmons D-10 P-P

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Heck, if the seller will take a thousand, I'LL BUY IT! Laughing

The first tear-down/re-assemble I did, I performed with the help of Clem Schmitz's book Methodology and Practice in Pedal Steel Guitar.

Yeah, it's a high-falutin' name, and it should have been called Introduction to Steel Guitar Setup, including Emmons Original Complete Assembly. Wink

But it's absolutely essential to the task. I still refer to it when I'm working on my Originals.

I think there might even be a DVD as well. It'd be worth it.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

and the wilderness guide by john lacy. explains how to tune the changes before you even install the rods.
this would be a breeze with only 4 levers.
cleanup and tuneup.
on the other hand, i keep shying away from disassembling my old d10 zum with 9+8. seems like a very busy project....and anyway, it still works the way it is.

John Brabant · From: Calais, VT, USA

Yes Herb. The Clem Schmitz walk thru is now on DVD. Got it from Clem about a month ago. Of course Clem tossed in some cool steel show video DVDs free of charge. I think it was $20 or so including postage.
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John Brabant
1978 Emmons D-10 P-P

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

The plot thickens... what is the yellow goup around the tuning screws?

Jeff Metz Jr. · From: York, Pennsylvania, USA

I have no Idea what that Goop is. It almost looks like the foam insulation you do wall voids with. Its very "old Bubble gum" like. I wonder if its a lubricant of some sort that Dries out and builds rigidity? Gross pubic looking changer for sure.
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Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Most things are better than they appear.... there are cosmetic evaluations and fundamental evaluations.

My first MSA S10 was a low hour guitar with lots of cosmetic issues. It got the job done and was about the price I was prepared to pay to dabble in the instrument at that point in my journey.

This one depends on how mechanically inclined you are, what you are prepared to accept cosmetically... and / or how much investment risk you are prepared to take.

If I was committed to tearing the guitar down for an amateur overhaul that resulted in a players guitar that was functional.... the gunk and goup wouldn't concern me in the least.

My gut is that you should contact Tony Prior...I dont know him but based on some posts he has made. .. this is the type of project he seems to delve into.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

OK, OK - I saw the guitar 2-3 weeks ago coming home from Baltimore. It is cool, but it needs a serious teardown, cleanup, and rebuild. The lacquer is very checked and dirty (as the new pictures show), which I think is a heavy turnoff for many pedal steel players. The undercarriage is very gummed up and some of the levers flap in the breeze - it's not fully playable now. One could probably do a quickie setup on it, but the parts are heavily gummed up - looked like a heavy buildup of hardened orange nicotine, lubricant, and probably some other nasty crap to me. The changer is probably likewise gummed up - I didn't scrutinize it that closely because I don't have time for a project like this now. I already have an old Sho Bud Fingertip in similar condition (but lacquer in quite a bit better shape) that I picked up in a Nashville pawnshop for about a third of this asking price, that needs a similar restoration. Let's see, that's almost two years ago and I still haven't gotten around to it. Guitars like this are a major project.

My old Franklin came to me in similar mechanical shape, but the cabinet/mica were in pretty nice shape. The entire undercarriage and changer were gunked up with stuff that looked like this one, and everything stuck together and changes would never come back to pitch. It took me a week or two to tear that guitar completely apart, soak that crap off the parts and changer with heavy-duty and nasty solvent and periodically apply lots of elbow-grease (outside and with several changes of rubber gloves, that's the only thing that would get the crap off), do a basic cleaning of the body underside, get everything back together and set up, and replace the fretboards which were destroyed getting the necks off (luckily, Paul Sr. had some), which had to be done to get the changer out. At least that's an all-pull, which IMO is quite a bit less tricky to work on than an old push-pull. I wasn't trying to make it look new - I like vintage guitars - but it came out well-functioning and solidly clean because the cabinet was already in good shape.

This Emmons does appear to be all or at least mostly there. But knowing how most pedal steelers are very cosmetics-conscious about finishes - and really, everything - I think anybody contemplating this should know what they're getting into. I have seen many steel players refinish old lacquer finishes in much better shape than this. I never understand why, but they do it anyway. On the other hand, you really would hafta love grungy old crackled and dirty lacquer finishes like on beat-to-death 50s Teles and so on to want to keep this finish on there.

Anyway, I wanted to want it. If it's restored by someone who knows what they're doing, it will probably be a hoss. If I bought it, I'd probably just bring it down to someone like Mike Cass and drop the dough to have him do the work so it's done right. Maybe I'd tear it down myself and do some of the dirty-work to clean it up first. And I perhaps wouldn't even get it refinished, but then again I like beat-to-hell lacquer finishes such as on old Les Pauls and Telecasters, you should see my 50s Tele. But I think I'm outright weird in that regard, as far as most pedal steel players go.

In any case, I think the finish shape and (IMO) the need to have a serious push-pull mechanic do a restore affect the as-is value significantly. Just my take, and that's what I told the store owner, who is a good guy and a friend of mine that I've known for a pretty long time. But it's a consignment, and that dictates the asking price.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

That gunk looks like dried up lithium grease.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Walter Bowden · From: Wilmington, North Carolina, USA

Herb it looks like a LOT of dried up lithium grease. More is not always better. WB
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Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

On the changer picture, yes, that looks at least partly like dried lithium grease. But in person, the yellow-orange stuff on the rods and elsewhere had that look/feel/smell of years of smoke and nicotine. The parts and the finish have that oranged-out tint that scream "I've been in smoky rooms for 40+ years" that I see on a lot of vintage guitars.

If that heavily crackled/yellowed/oranged/crusty finish was on a cool old 50s Telecaster, most of the guys I know into them wouldn't think twice about it. It would undoubtedly affect the price somewhat, but they'd say, "yeah, cool old Tele with lots of character and 'vibe', and nothing that affects the sound/playability". With an old steel like this, one has to deal with both bringing the machine back into playable shape and, I think, a perception by (I believe) many or perhaps even most pedal steelers that the finish is too far gone and needs to be redone.

Marty Neer · From: Kansas, USA

Is it me or does the R/H pillow block on the e9 neck look a little crooked? The pedal bar looks to have the larger pedals so it may be early to mid seventies guitar. I found a guitar that was just like this one once. Gunked up tons of nicotine, cracked finish, and YES it took a lot of work to get it cleaned up. But, it was worth the time and was a learning experience and you will undoubtedly have a nice axe down the road. However, not worth what their asking for IMO.

Jack Strayhorn · From: Winston-Salem, NC

delete

John Brabant · From: Calais, VT, USA

Steel screws running through aluminum changer fingers. Add moisture, a little acid air pollution and lack of maintenance and you get this yellow kind of corrosion, same as you find on car battery terminals. If it ain't lithium grease, my bet is this is the yellow stuff we are seeing at the changer bottom.
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John Brabant
1978 Emmons D-10 P-P

Jack Strayhorn · From: Winston-Salem, NC

Someone has used plumbers tape as locktite.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Ugh, I think I'd sanitize it before I did anything because of all the dog and cat hair, lol
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

that's interesting. wood neck p/ps have been bolt on changers my whole steel player life.
the changer bolts on to the neck.
now all of a sudden someone wants to change that
nomenclature? why?
because you want your early metal neck bolt on to be more special? they may be different in that they don't stay in tune as well, but the changer is still
a bolt on.
someone should post a pic of the very first bolt on /wraparound to compare to the standard bolt on of the seventies.
and the difference between the earliest and latest metal neck bolt ons.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

The earliest wood neck guitars, and I've owned #7 and #8, had no milled lip or notch where the pillars mounted, just flat to the neck. IOW, the bottom of the pillars were on the same plane as the fretboards.

I don't have a clear photo, but the current owner of #8 may decide to post a photo.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

thanks herb. and i imagine that is the same as the early metal neck bolt on?

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

I have heard that there was an all-metal neck bolt-on in 1964, among the first 20 guitars, without the lip. However, the only metal neck bolt-ons I've seen, 1966-67 guitars, all had the milled lip for the changer pillars.

I've owned 5 D-10 BOs and they have all been honkers! Currently I have an S-10 that is my E9 fly date guitar.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Bruce Derr · From: Lee, New Hampshire, USA

I know we're drifting off topic a bit here but I have an s-10 bolt-on, aluminum neck, that was made in 1971, according to the Emmons company. Is that unusual? Perhaps a case of the factory using up leftover parts? It was rosewood mica with a brown badge. (It's black now.) I've seen photos of other '71s and don't remember any being bolt-ons.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

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