3rd string change: G# --> G

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

This topic has most likely been covered before, but here goes: Looking through the copedents of various players, I noticed that (at one time, at least) more than a few players had a change that lowers the 3rd string G# to G. I was wondering:

1) what are some more well known songs in which this change is used (so I can get an idea of what it sounds like);

2) is this change used by itself or in combination with some other change, or both?;

3) when and how is this change generally used and what type of sound does it make? In other words, how does it fit in theory-wise?

Thanks

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

to me, the lowering the 3rd string is *in music theory* lowering the 3rd. That turns a major chord into a minor.
So if you can lower the 3 and 6-- you get another position for a minor chord.
I have the change on my steel, and I use it all the time, but I can't tell you how, because, quite honestly, my mind does not work like that.
Terry Bethel wrote a nice little waltz, "Jeremy" which he has in "The Manual of Style"-- and it uses the 3/6 G# lower.

JW

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

The most common use of this change is with the A pedal. This gives you C# diminished chord, which is actually an A7 without the A note. For practical purposes, you can consider it an A7.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

"This gives you C# diminished chord, which is actually an A7 without the A note."

---------------------------------------------

Thank you Mike.

Also, I have always felt the lowering of the 3rd AND the 6th strings (half a tone) was just one more necessary change that is needed on the PSG. I predict it will be a standard change one day. Just as other changes have become and are becoming standard.

Musically, it fits perfectly when called for. And it is called for many times in "blues" music and/or phrases. Lowering of the 3rd tone in the tonic chord of a given key has been used sooooooo much in several genre's of music.

The most classic example of lowering the 3rd I know of; is Jerry Byrd's "Steelin' the Blues". Where he lowers his E note (3rd tone on C6) by pulling this tip of his bar back and using the open string while picking at the first fret.

True, it does not often lend itself in "country" music as much. This may be why it has not as of yet become a standard change. But again, I believe it will.

This is why I had to have it in my switchover copedent. And the lever I use for it is LKL; which normally is the E to F lever. I find this a perfect place for it. I like it on a knee lever and with the automatic switchover it allows me instantly to use LKL for lowering 3, 6 and 10 (my U-12). And then just as quickly switch back to LKL raising 4 and 8 and 11 to an F.

Further, having it on LKL makes it perfect for that A7th chord (as Mike said) when used with the A pedal. We have often needed a 7th chord WITH the 7th on top while playing strings 3, 4 and 5. We never had this. By lowering 3, we now have it.

The following is an example of using that 7th to resolvoe a V7 to the I chord. Key of C:

1. Pick strings 3, 4 and 5 at the 8th fret.

2. Engage the A and B pedals while lowering the E's. And then release.

3. Slide down two frets as the strings sustain.

4. Slide down 2 more frets and lower the G# to a G AND engage pedal A.

5. Slide down 1 more fret and release the G# to G and bring in the B pedal as the notes sustain.

This would accomplish (using full 3 note chords) what Buddy Emmons did on Ray Price's original classic, "The Way to Survive"; only he used two strings (3 and 5) instead of all three; PLUS he had to backward slant the next to last note to get that "7th on top" lick.

What a glorioulsy beautiful instrument Jesus has given us. Praise his name. And may he richly bless all of you,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 05 December 2003 at 07:27 AM.]

Richard Gonzales · From: Davidson, NC USA

I lower the 3rd to G only because I tune my S12 Universal to Eb9/Bb6.

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

Thanks for the great replies, gentlemen. Another question -- if one desired to add the said change to a "standard" (if I may say that) E9th 3x4 setup, what would be "best" way to do it.

In other words, could it be added without removing any other change on a 3x4 while still leaving the guitar "playable" or is it a situation where it would be best either to add a knee lever OR remove another change? Thanks again for the great info.

PS -- I noticed some players have it on a pedal, yet it seems from what has been said above that it might be more usable as a knee lever change -- any thoughts? Thanks.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I have been thinking of this one as another lever, but it becomes a Crawford cluster thing, and shoe horning it in will be interesting. But I would like to go minor at any non pedal bar placement like on my C6.
To be able to do it quickly without moving, and also be able to move to find another voicing, gives you several more possibilities.

It seem like you can get those long Lloyd Green glisses in minor as well as major with this added.

But where to put it... a there's the rub.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 December 2003 at 01:10 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Where to put it?

This is a perplexing question. And not unusual any more. When the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th knee levers were added to our beloved instrument, it was obvious where they would go. We have two knees and they each can swing right or left.

The 5th knee lever was also somewhat obvious.

Beyond this, it becomes a problem. And several scenarios have emerged:

1. Comprimise

2. Give up something

3. Add a 2nd LKL

4. Add a 2nd LKR

5. Add a 2nd RKL

6. Add a 2nd RKR

Any or all of these have been done by some players. And as time goes by, it is only going to be more difficult to decide,

"What should I do to get that new change?"

In a word, it was inevetible as our ears and playing prowess causes us to "hear" a change that we do not have.

Just a few examples of this happening are:

1. Buddy Emmons lowering his 6th string a whole tone.

2. Paul Franklin lowering 5, 6 and 10 a whole tone.

3. Paul raising his 1st and 7th strings a whole tone.

5. Paul raising his 2nd string a half a tone.

The reasons for these changes is that music has never been limited by a musical instrument. Man tries to make music fit into the instrument. But sooner or later, it becomes obvious that music is the king and NOT the instrument.

Jimmy Crawford, I understand, has raised and lowered every string to its mechanical limit. I am sure this has something to do with his coined "Crawford Cluster". IE:

LKL, LKL2, LKV, LKR and LKR2.

So, "where do I put it?"

Well, if you want it bad enough, you will have it sooner or later. The choices will not be easy. To say, "one only needs 8 x 4" or "LG does not lower his 4th sring" makes for good ole boy thinking, but it does not stand the test of time.

Outhouses served a purpose, until someone thought about indoor plumbing. Such is the case with the PSG.

I said all the above to tell you that the best place I know of (if you have ABC), is to put the G# to G lower on a 2nd LKL. If you already have one, the next best place IMO is a 2nd LKR.

Only as a last resort would I suggest a 2nd right knee lever(left or right). It is just too difficult to get used to.

May Jesus lead you right, and bless you all always,

carl

Ben Lawson · From: Brooksville Florida

I have had this change since '77 and use it a lot. Jimmy Crawford put it on my guitar when he built it. I had no idea what to do with it for a while other than the minor it created, but now I rely on it for a number of unexplainable changes. Mike might have to explain the theory, I just like the sounds.

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

Most of the people I know that have it (Crawford, Garrish, myself and lots of others) have it on a second LKL. This works best if you have your E's to D# on the right knee, as all the above have...

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Some people (including Joe Wright!) have it on their first pedal, moving the standard 3 pedals a notch to the right. This fits right in with the usage that Mike Perlowin mentioned above (an A7 chord).

It's a lot like pedal 6 on the C6th. It gives you an Em or an A9 chord (rootless) at the nut.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

b0b -- I've seen several S-10 psg's with 4 pedals. Would this change most likely be the reason for the fourth pedal? Or is a fourth pedal often used for some other change?

Not to belabor the point, but would putting the change on a fourth pedal next to the "A" pedal cause any limitations in the use of the change, or vice versa (that is, on the other hand, would the fourth pedal enable the change to be used in ways that it may not be possible on a knee lever)?

Thanks again to all who've posted

--edit-- I forgot to mention that I see from an older copedent of Ralph Mooney that he had this change on a pedal that is adjacent and to the right of a pedal equivalent to the C pedal (I think).

In other words, Moon has the G#-->G change on a pedal to the right of, and right next to, a pedal with the E-->F# change.

This would lead simple minds like mine to believe that this was done to enable Moon to employ the G#-->G change in combination with the E-->F# change, although I could be totally mistaken.

Any comments on this? To be honest, the Ralph Mooney sound is kind of what I'm after, although I'm totally clueless as to how the aforementioned changes are used by him (or anyone else to be honest). Thanks again.

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 06 December 2003 at 11:25 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Tom,

The most popular 4th pedal is Paul Franklin's, which lowers strings 5, 6 and 10 a full step.

In general, changes on knee levers are more useful because they are always available in combination with any pedals. For example, if the change is on a knee lever (let's call it "K"), a transition from A+B to A+K would be a real smooth full-tone change of a major chord to a 7th. You can't get that effect with the change on a pedal (unless you're using both feet!).

I've never heard Mooney use E-F# and G#-G together. I'm not saying he doesn't, but I've never noticed it if he does.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

b0b, thanks for the info. I see what you mean about the knee changes being more versatile in combination with the standard pedal changes.

Regarding Ralph Mooney, my above theory is almost certainly wrong. Come to think of it, I understand that he commonly uses both feet simultaneously on the pedals. So, maybe his positioning of the G#-->G change as mentioned above is for the purpose of enabling him to use the right foot for the G#-->G change while using the left foot for the "A" pedal change, or possibly the "A+B" as well. This seems to fit in much better with the uses of the change with the A pedal as you and others have explained. Thanks again.

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 06 December 2003 at 12:03 PM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

One thing I like w the 3&6 G#-G (lower the 3rd of the chord to a b3 in open pos) is to include the b7 in the chord and lower it a half tone to a 6.
Example:
play strings 9 8 6 5 for an E7 chord then lower 9 a half tone (D-C#) and 6 a half tone G#-G this gives an Em6 but the chord sounds as an A9 w a 3rd in the bass.
I have the G#-G on a 2nd LKL lever and it works very well at that location.
Having the change on a pedal P0 where P1 = Apedal would allow for some nice things also.
W P0 & P1 & LKL (E's-F) one can play all the harmonized triads of a major scale w the root note being on 5th string. The change between the major triad and the minor b5 is possible w G#-G on LKL2, LKL1 being E's-F but it is a lot smoother w G#-G on a pedal next to the Apedal. But then the A+B -> A -> A+LKL2 is not possible when the change is on a pedal so one has to choose what one wants to do with that change first. I also use the G#-G together w Aped 1 fret above open pos for a E7 on strings 6 5 2
If I want to include the 8string lowered to the root note I will trade 6G#-G w 7 F#-G(RKR)1st string but that is another story.
Or I sometimes use G#-G together w Cped for a partial E7#9 ( no root )
I only have the G#-G on the 6th string because it is split tuned w a pedal that raise 6 G#-A# & 5 B-C# so I can change between a Dom9 and a m9 on strings 7 6 5 4 3

Bengt Erlandsen
ZumSteel S12 ExtE9 7+7
JCH D10 8+8

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 06 December 2003 at 08:17 PM.]

Drew Howard · From: 48854

I had the G#>G change on a single-neck guitar but never used it. I get more notes using the three frets up A pedal down position.

Drew

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www.drewhoward.com

Keith Currie · From: Shellbrook, Saskatchewan, Canada

Hi All
I lower my 3rd a half tone and my 6st a full tone on my lkv lever.
Use it it things like I Sang Dixie.
Keith

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