12th fret bad tone

Kevin Chriss · From: Carmel, IN, USA

I have an Excel keyless and I find it is imposible to fret well at the 12 fret. It doesn't matter how much pressure I apply, or if I just bar 1 string. I use a BJS chrome bar and S/S strings. Is this normal?

Buck Reid · From: Nashville,TN

Kevin,
you may have tried this....but with the open harmonic frets(5,7,12),it's sometimes helpful to mute the strings behind the bar by simply relaxing your hand,allowing your fingers to lay down on the strings.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

normal.

Most steel guitars experience this; more or less; keyless or keyed. The surprising thing is my '37 Rick bakelite has NONE of this. And I do not understand why. It is just as clear at the 12th fret as any other fret.

My Fender 400, '69 Emmons P/P, 88 Emmomns' LeGrande, Sierria Session D-10 keyless, AND my 2000 Excel SupeB model keyless, all have a problem at the 12th fret; as your thread suggests. The 400, P/P and LeGrande were all keyed.

Incidently, there IS a difference in the sound of a keyless versus a keyed guitar. IE, if the guitar is keyed, (ALL else being equal), there will be more sustain after the 12th fret than a keyless. This may be due to more perceived "overtones". Not sure.

There will be much disagreement over this. However, I stand on it, because I have experimented too long and too much not to believe this. I can hear it.

NOTE: not saying keyless have no sustain. I am saying that the amount of sustain will always be less (all else equal) on a keyless, when compared to the same guitar that is keyed.

I can take a keyed head and temporarily replace my keyless head on my Excel (the Excel is the same length as a keyed guitar by design) and anyone can hear the difference. It is not subtle. It is there!

carl

Bob Carlson · From: Surprise AZ.

If it's off that bad the string rollers might be mixed up. Does it sound ok at the 3rd fret?

Bob

Kevin Chriss · From: Carmel, IN, USA

It plays fine at the 3rd fret. It should be setup right,I bought it at Scotty's. The 12th fret wound strings are not playable and anything above the 12th does not sound near as good as below the 12th. It sounds like your not fretting hard enough. I have tried muting the strings behind the bar, but it doesn't help. Is there anyone around the Indianapolis area that would look at it for me?

Bob Carlson · From: Surprise AZ.

If it was ok when you first got it...a new set of strings is what I would try next.

Or did this start after you did something to the steel?

Bob

Roy Thomson · From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada

Why don't you email Scotty?
Or call him. He would be the most
appropriate one to help you and he
should be made aware in any event?

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

What exactly do you mean by "does not fret well"? All guitars have some degree of decrease in volume and sustain at the 12th fret because that's the null between the first and second octave string nodes. It's just the physics of a vibrating string.Is that what you mean? One thing I've seen Jay Dee Maness do is lift up the left hand fingers behind the bar at the 12th fret and beyond to pick up a little more volume and sustain. I have an Excel keyless and I find it to be the most mechanically stable and even balanced sounding guitar with the least amout of these types of problems of any guitar I know of. The high register rings loud and clear and is easy to play in tune due to the long(25.5")scale.The only problem I had was the nut rollers that came on the guitar didn't match my string gauges causing a couple of strings to ride low requiring extra bar pressure to ring clean at the first 2 frets. An e-mail to Scotty and then to Mitsuo was all it took to get the right rollers. On my Sierra keyless,I once had a problem where the 5th string would twang like a sitar when I pedaled it up a whole step with the bar at the 12th fret.When I went from a 1" bar to a 15/16ths" bar,the problem disappeared. My best guess on that is that the curvature of the bar matched the angle of the node excursion from the null(12th fret)upwards - close enough to rattle.The 15/16ths" bar leaves the point of string contact at a steeper curve so the string didn't rattle.Funny thing is when the string wasn't raised w/a pedal,it didn't twang and AFTER it was raised it didn't twang - only DURING the raise.Apparently the extra energy imparted to an already vibrating string by increasing it's tension w/a pedal "woke it up" like the old physics class experiment with a ruler on the edge of a table. No such problem on my Excel w/either bar BTW. -MJ-

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Are you pushing down too hard with the bar? This might make the wound strings touch the pickup...that would cause a problem like you describe.

Kevin Chriss · From: Carmel, IN, USA

Michael describes the sound best, its sounds like a sitar. I just put new strings on it just to make sure and it still does it. The 8th string sounds bad all up and down the neck without adding alot of pressure. I think the guitar is fine, I just don't have the right strings for it. I am using Jerry Brightman Series Jagwire S/S strings. Here is the gauges. .012, .015, .011, .014, .018, .022, .026, .030, .034, .038 Maybe the Excel does not like S/S? If anyone has advice on string gauges for the Excel let me know. I'll also try to email Fuzzy or Don Curtis at Scotty's. Thanks

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I use nickle Jagwires on mine and they sound fine. -MJ-

Bob Carlson · From: Surprise AZ.

Lay a straight edge across the strings (up by the rollers) to see if the height is the same. The strings you have should be ok.

If up by the rollers they are not level...the rollers must be mixed up or the wrong size.

Did this steel do this when you first bought it? If it was ok then it must be something you did. If so, think back to what you have did to it and the answer should be there.

If you don't make a mistake once in awhile, chances are pretty good you aren't making a whole lot of progress either.

I've made a lot of them in my 71 years of this wonderful life.

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlson on 08 December 2003 at 08:05 AM.]

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