Doesn't Jimmy Day make more sense?

David Friedlander · From: New York, New York, USA

I taught myself how to play on a Marlen S10 3/4 which has pedals set to Jimmy Day - the A pedal is on the right, closest to the volume pedal. My left knee left lowers my E's. Left knee right raises the E's.

Seems to me that it's much more natural rocking from the outside of your foot to the inside- making the AB pedal moves much more natural.
Add the left knee and it all makes sense.
Press the pedal on the right ( my A) and your left knee right and you get a 6 chord ( major)
Do this on the 4th fret for an F major, now just roll over to press pedal B too, while releasing the knee and moving the bar to the 3rd fret for a C major- sweet change.

I know a lot of people reccomend an Emmons setup because that's what most people play, but to me, that does not seem reason enough. I'm sure a high percentage of new guitars shipped have some unique copendants. In other words, many players need to learn to change the copedant, or have someone do it for them anyway.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

"I'm sure a high percentage of new guitars shipped have some unique copendants."

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While there are some unique copedents being shipped, the overwhelming copedent is the Emmons's setup with 8 and 4; but 8 and 5 coming on strong. (3 and 5 on S-10's)

So even though there has been wide variations in the past, there IS definitely a standard emerging. I believe this to be good. I feel it will make the steel more in tune with what needs to be in order to attract an ever wider clientel.

Sure it is nice for those of us who can to be able to change copedents. But for those who would simply rather buy a guitar and play it, a standard becomes paramount.

And it has taken too many years for this to surface.

carl

Harold Parris · From: Piedmont, Alabama USA

I use the Day setup on my floor pedals but my knee levers are different. The Day setup is alright and as you say it seems easier for my ankle bend. The Emmons setup has less cabinet drop because the most used pedals are closer to the end of the guitar. It is more common to use the Emmons setup I assume and the main holdup with using the Day setup is you usually can't play guitars at the shows that belong to vendor as most are Emmons. Different strokes for different folks!

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Sierra Session and MSA Classic Guitars, Nashville 400, Session 400, and Evans FET 500 HiVolt, and Gretsch Nashville Pro Steel Amps, Keith Hilton Digital Sustain pedal and Digital Sustain Box .
Harold Parris email hparris9@aol.com

David Friedlander · From: New York, New York, USA

I agree a standard would be benficial- but I feel that to draw more people to play the pedal steel, you're going to have to convert guitar players- and the pool is outside the type of music traditionally though of as "pedal Steel music"
Since I learned on Day, it just seems more natural. For theaching a new player, the Day setup seems better because it places almost all the chord changes on the left foot/knee.
If new players can be drawn from different types of music, the status qou will be less important.

Horold's point about cabinet drop is the first one I've heard that seems to have a basis in something besides preference.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

My first 4 guitars were all Emmons setup. A while ago I bought a '70s push/pull that was set up with Day pedals and the E raises on the left knee right. Within 45 minutes I decided that I liked the Day setup much better. The next day all 3 of my steels were setup Day. It's more sensible to my mind that E raises should be a lever moving to the right. The Day pedals and the LKR as E raises just makes sense. It's also easier for my leg muscles to move my left leg right than left. I've got the E lowers on my RKL. The switch to this Day setup makes the AF combo easy and natural. I dont think I'll go Emmons again. Although I play Emmons guitars

Brad Sarno
'66, '69 Emmons, ZB Custom, Session 400, Gretsch Nashville Pro, Fender Twin

Bill Bailey · From: Kingman, AZ

I have to jump in here just for fun. My first guitar was an older Sho-Bud with the Day set up and had no rollers on the key head. I traded up to a "The Professional" from there with the Day set up, I then went to a Mullen with the Day set up, I then ordered a Sho-Bud Pro III Custom with the Day set up. One nite when I was playing at the Red Rose Saloon in Sparks Nevada, Paul Franklin and a bunch of Mel's band all came to set in with my band. I was amazed and shocked at the amount of music coming from my Sho-Bud with Day pedals and Pauls playing. Paul played two sets that night and I was in musical heaven on earth. After the sets paul asked a few questions about the little tape player in front of my steel and asked to hear a little from it.I played a couple samples and he seemed pleased with what he heard. That night I dedided to set my guitars up with Paul's pedal set up. I will admit it was hard to go from the Day to the Emmons set up but I have stuck with to this day and it feels as natural now to me as did the Day set up I started out with. I loaned the cassette tape of Paul and all of the Statesiders who set in with us that night to a bass player named Rudy Ybarra from Sacramento, who just had to play it for his brother, a steel player I never met and never saw the tape again. I would pay a reward for that tape if anyone knows of it's whereabouts. The tape included Paul on my Sho-Bud, Garstang on piano, Bryan on Guitar Jim Buchannan on fiddle, Donnie Maddox on Bass me on guitar and vocal Tom Tomasco on drums and other members of Mels band coming on and off stage as the mood struck them. That nite changed my musical life and direction. Sorry to ramble, I dont get a chance to add much here anymore, hope some of you haven't
heard this before. Jeff Newman told me after hearing this story, Paul may not have even used the pedals very much and still played all that music. Take care all.
Bill Bailey

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[This message was edited by Bill Bailey on 23 November 2003 at 10:51 PM.]

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

My Take---A standard will probably evolve, but I don't see it in the near future. There are still too many 'dinosaurs' like me that will continue to play what we have developed over decades.

One would suppose after we're all dead and gone, and there are no longer individuals like Stafford, Bell, Anderson, Steiner, Davis, Carver, Jones, Curtis, Dixon, Henderson, Briscoe (sic), Jones, Smith, Franklin, Emmons, and many others around, then the instrument mechanics and tunings will be standardized. That will enable everyone to have the capability of "sitting down" behind any guitar and play like everyone else. Nevah Hoppen!!

Steel players are just like farmers, too damned independent thinking. Can you imagine if all the farmers got together and formed a union, what would happen to food prices...Whew, what a thought for this 'fat boy' who likes to eat. Lawdy Miss Clawdy, Garfield move over.

Steelers are just the same. We're always searching for "that sound, that tone, that tuning, that horn" which makes one of us different from the other.

You folks would be surprised at how many players, listed above, don't even use E9 or C6 as their "standard tuning".

Oh well, maybe I'm preaching to the choir, so let's open up the books to page 129 and "let 'er go boys and girls".

Fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I disagree that a standard will evolve with the next generation.

Some kids love the old stuff and will want the setups we know.

Other kids idolize Robert Randolf and players like him. They'll use his setup.

Somebody who is not yet born will invent another setup.

It's not a bad thing. Just evolution.

There's no standard for lap steel, so how can it's more complex cousin expect to have one?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I think that Day (CBA) makes more sense on a U-12 than Emmons (ABC). The C pedal isn't as useful as the A pedal when your E's are lowered for B6th playing. I always figured that was why Jeff Newman plays Day.

As for comfort: I have ABC, but I've been playing without the E raise on my C pedal lately so it's nearly ABA. To me it's a wash, comfort wise. My reflexes are very used to A+F on the outside. I guess I'm lucky that's the more "standard" position - even RR has it!

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

If I had it to do over again (and I guess I do if I want to) I would play an S12U with the B6th pedals on the left, and following P6 would be the "B" pedal, and then the A pedal (the A pedal being closest to the V-ped).

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Personally, I find the E changes work better on the right knee. I usually play the Day setup, but I find that when I play my Emmons (with the Emmons setup), my left knee's doing all the work!

Wayne Cox · From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.

To add to what FRED said,you'd probably be surprised at the number of professionals who don't even use standard E9/C6 setups,much less worry about the sequence of the pedals. The main thing and bottom line is always: What are you comfortable with? I don't think I could live without the Eb knee lever,but Lloyd Greene played on tons of hit records without it. He was comfortable with that and so are eye!

~~W.C.~~

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

I fell off a roof some years ago and my ankle just turns better in the "Day direction". One thing some folks may consider is that if your copedant includes the "Franklin" 4th pedal or another change that works with the "A" pedal, you're in for a lot less dancing with the Day setup.

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

David Friedlander · From: New York, New York, USA

Hi All,
Happy Turkey to all!
I was just practicing some major scales which require me to roll from the inside most pedal to the middle one ( my a-b pedals) There's really not a lot of moves in this direction with a day pedal setup. I don't think I could ever get used to rocking in that direction.
It seems like half pedaling to the outside is also much more difficult. It's such an un-natural motion, rolling to the outside, as opposed to putting your weight on the outside of your foot, and rolling your foot in the direction it's made to go.

As far as great players- It's all what you get used to- but when a master sits down, they can the durn thing with no pedals and make it do things lesser mortals thought impossible.

I've seen Buddy Cage play quite a few times since his horn was ripped off.
There's no way to call his performance "limited" although he's missing something like 2strings, 6 pedals and 10 knee levers that existed on the axe which was stolen.

Gordon Titcomb · From: Woodbury, Connecticut, USA

The first guitar I ever had was set up with the "Emmons" pedal arrangement (it was an old Fender). In 1973 I ordered a Marlen that (due to a misunderstanding with the dealer), was set up "Day" style. Within a couple of days I discover that I LOVED it! I have been using the "Day" set up for better the 25 years. It seems to be a much more ergonomically logical arrangement (at least for me).
I do, however, have to agree with all the folks who point out that being used to playing the "Day" set-up, makes it a real drag when you want to sit-in with someone elses guitar. I figure that's why they put the C6th neck there

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Best regards-Gordon
http://www.gordontitcomb.com

John Davis · From: Cambridge, U.K.

This side of the pond, we mostley call it the Gordon Huntley setup!!

David Friedlander · From: New York, New York, USA

As far as the notion that a player is disadvantaged because they can't sit in on with the pedals set to emmons:
Don't most players have the knee levers set to preference, and not always the same as the next guy.
If you sit down on someone eles's axe, you're likely ( or smart) to stick to simpler moves.
You ain't doin your omst complex moves on someone eles guitar anyway.

Same for trying out a guitar- you can only get so much of an idea at a music store, or a trade show.

Are there a lot of pedal steel players over there John? If so, do most play "Huntley"?

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