Which steel is which???

Brendan Mitchell · From: Melbourne Australia

Well , I had them a** about that time .
I picked ditty 2 as the Fender .

Daniel McKee · From: Corinth Mississippi

I gotta say if you hadnt mentioned this was a comparison I more than likely wouldnt have known it was two very different guitars.

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

I actually "guessed" right on both (should have bought a lottery ticket today). I have very little experience to base my guesses on, but I assumed the Fender would have a bit more of the "vintage tone", which to me sounds like a narrower sound range, what I would call "thinner", but not sure that is the correct term. I thought it would be easy to tell with these two instruments from very different eras, but I am not even sure I was hearing what I thought I heard...might have just been lucky! As others noted, it is surprising how similar they sound. Bob, you say you like that "vintage" bright sound... well, you have achieved it I think. Nice playing, too!

Doug
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental!

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Franklin · Posted 27 Jul 2012 5:24 am

Bob,

Recording is a strange concept for accurate comparisons. When everything in the chain is lo-fi every brand will sound extremely similar. When the bandwidth is wide enough as is true with very expensive tube mic pre amps, etc, the listener can hear all the frequency range of the tone. The vintage width of the Fender can not be totally reproduced. Fender steels like the PP's also has a great sounding bottom end. Although we all heard differeces in the clips, the bottom end was missing in the clips. Paul

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Not to disagree Paul, as no one knows more about recording than you do.. However as someone that has owned 3 Fender steels, I must say the one thing they lack in comparison to other steels is a good bottom end.. Any very bright steel, or guitar or keyboard can have the bottom end enhanced of course, however its not really inherent in the Fender pickup design...
I mean a tele is not a bottom endy guitar, its a very bright guitar inherently... Replace the pickups with 12 K humbuckers, and you get a boost of the bottom end frequencies as long as the amp can reproduce it.. EQ it a certain way, and it can be as fat as you want...

Those Fender steel pickups are wound at around 8 k.
They are very bright.

When I play it through any of my many amps, it is bright. Thats the way I "hear" steel.
Not long ago, I had a session locally.
The studio owner HATED the Fender I used.. First thing he did, was EQ the hell out of it, and get it to sound as close as he possibly could to a "modern" steel. Thats what he heard .
Yeah I guess you can coax good bottom out of a Fender steel with an 8 K pickup, or a Carter with pseudo Fender wound 8 K pickup, but it would really have to be done through EQ as its just not a "natural " outcome with a pickup wound that lightly... Big full bottom and thick mids are the desired sound for most steel payers these days, and thats why guys are using pickups wound at 19-20 K...
A 17 K pickup today is considered lightly wound.

I agree with you that my $.99 mike through the computer is lo fi.. However, both these guitars are bright, without a big bottom, unless you do quite a bit of EQ enhancement. As far as other brands with heavily wound pickups sounding the same through this dopey recording setup???. I don't know. I won't argue, but won't concede the point either.
I don't think my old mica MSA guitars w/ Supersustain buckers would sound very close to those clips, even with my childish recording "technique". They were the exact opposite of the pickups on these guitars... They produced big thick low end, fat mids, and just kind of stopped there.
Even the .99 mike would have noticed it in all likelyhood.
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Franklin · Posted 28 Jul 2012 5:41 am

Bob,
I can only speak for my experiences, not to yours concerning the Fenders bottom end. Arguably Curly's best tone was on the "Big Hits On Big Steel". His tone on that Fender speaks more towards whether the Fender is absent of a good clearly defined bottom end than anything I can say. Except my Fender 400 was bright on the top and warm on the bottom strings.

Paul

Franklin · Posted 28 Jul 2012 6:43 am

Bob,

I am not asking you to concede to anything. Just talking about tonal opinions over comparisons. My experience with pickups tells me they can not create any tonal charecteristics in a guitar that doesn't exist inherently within it, like a clean warm bottom end or mids. Pickups are also a means to EQ the tone of any instrument.

Paul

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

PAUL.. I understand your position.. its a common one.. Let me make this point however, so you will understand my feeling on the matter...

A Les Paul Standard has full size humbuckers
Les Paul Deluxe has 2 mini humbuckers
Les Paul Special has 2 P-90's... They are all Les pauls, yet have very distinct characteristics in the "sonic signiture", and really are quite different sounding... Its not simply a matter of EQ.
Same thing with some early USA built Epiphone guitars... The Epiphone Olympic,Wilshire, and Coronet were all identical.. NO difference.. All were thin solid body set neck mahogany guitars.. However the Olymipic has cheap single coil strat style pickups,
the Coronet had P-90 pickups and the Wilshire had Mini humbuckers.. yes, they all had a Gibson "signiture", however, these identical bodies sounded and sustained very dis similar in many respects, and just did NOT respond the same.. I have owened all these guitars, as well as humbucker equipped teles... A humbucker tele, sounds sustains and responds like a completely different guitar than a tele with standard pickups.. Look, I understand where you are coming from, and a lot of experts will agree. Some won't I imagine
, .. Over the years, I have improved guitars with pickup changes, and ruined several..
I bought a Bud a few years ago with a GeorgeL 10-1... Sounded nothing like a Bud to me, not even close...

Sound is in the body yes,... until you change the pickups, the amp, or the signal chain, then all bets are off. There is a reason guys change pickups, or amps... I recently had an extremely talented steel student bring me his GFI..
Had a GFI labeled bucker which was a GeorgeL I believe.. that guitar sounded AWFUL.. Muddy, nasty harsh mids, Really bad.. .. He ordered a Truetone with coil tap, similar to what I use on my Carter, and that steel was instantly transformed into a lovely vintage sounding steel with clean highs, very pleasing and musical mid, and nice tight bass.
Totally different steel.
You're the man Paul, you KNOW great tone and have it to spare in your recordings, but we will have to respectfully agree to disagree on this subject... Lollar, Duncan, Fralin, guys like that make a great living selling pickups that sound better to most ears than whats installed from the factory.

To me, its more than an EQ issue... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Franklin · Posted 29 Jul 2012 6:46 am

Donald Boyajian · Posted 1 Aug 2012 7:42 am

Just to follow up on what Bob said---I'm his student with the GFI. Although I'm pretty new to PSG...I'm a long time 6 string player...and I can say without a doubt that the pickup totally changed the guitar.

Usually with guitar...I would say pickups are the last part of the equation. However, I was blown away with how different the truetone made the guitar sound. Like a totally different instrument.
_________________
GFI S-10 Expo. Peavey NV 112

Franklin · Posted 1 Aug 2012 9:04 am

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Don said-
Just to follow up on what Bob said---I'm his student with the GFI. Although I'm pretty new to PSG...I'm a long time 6 string player...and I can say without a doubt that the pickup totally changed the guitar.

Usually with guitar...I would say pickups are the last part of the equation. However, I was blown away with how different the truetone made the guitar sound. Like a totally different instrument.

Paul said-
EQ most certainly changes the equation....I'd love to hear an explanation beyond someones marketed campaigns that states how a pickup does something beyond EQ'ing the tone of an instrument.
PF

Paul, by that logic, there are no reasons to have more than one brand or style of pickup...

Why do some great players with great ears lust after original Lawrence 705 pickups, and put them in any steel they play?... There is something inherent in that particular pickup.

As I stated, no one has a better ear than you, and I understand where you are coming from, but personally I can't accept it, and would debate the point ad infinitum with anyone...

I keep going back to that same old scenario..
Take a Les Paul, put 2 tele single coils in it, and change nothing else, and your LP, is a VERY different sounding guitar, .. IMHO, you could not EQ the character back in.. Not until you put the gibson humbuckers back in.

Let me ask you this Paul.. If you put a radically different pickup in your main squeeze, say the Jaguar style one from my Fender 800, do you feel you would be able to make that particular steel sound and respond exactly the same way you are used to?

I would think there wound be something lacking to your ear, even if it was something intangible.

My 800 has a massive sound acoustically.. Big fat sustain, loud and vibrant... The floor vibrates when i play it,,, That cast aluminum case, and that heavy plank of a body rings like a bell.. However, plug it it in, and its very bright and "Fendery".. Sounds nothing like it does acoustically.. Don, who is a VERY good musician with a critical ear noticed that instantly one evening when we had our steels set up. The Fender just has a huge acoustic sound, but a very light and bright sound amplified, regardless of the amp I use.. I say its the weak jaguar style pickup Fender used in these guitars.
I know I won't change your mind Paul, but like I said, I would debate the point with anyone.

Let me ask a question of you Paul.. Have you ever changed a pickup in any of your steels? Even as a younger player? If so, why?...
Never to change the character of the steels sound and response?... You must admit, it is a good debate.. Your opinion is shared by a lot of great players.. However, on my side, a lot of great players have changed pickups that were functioning perfectly... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Franklin · Posted 1 Aug 2012 5:59 pm

Bob,

My belief is anything I use that changes the tone is in fact EQ'ing my guitar......From the types of guitar cords, effects pedals, tube or solid state amps, microphone pre's, the type of volume pedal, the speaker size and type, the type of microphone, analogue or digital outboard gear etc.....I am saying every item in my sonic chain influences (EQ's) certain frequencies..And with a high end outboard EQ I can correct the nuance of any of those items even if I were to change the pickup I could still get the exact tone.....Its like having many different roads leading back to home.....There are many roads to get there and some are easier and more direct than others..I prefer the direct route and for me that is starting with a BL pickup....I like it for its full uncolored range...The reason why there is no need to change is because I have not heard a single pickup that I can't emulate including your Fender Pickup when I need that variance....Before each Franklin leaves for its new home I play it. Throughout the years Dad has used all of the known pickups by request of their new owner. Needless to say I hear and I know how each one sounds a little different on the Franklin guitar. And by tweaking through my gear on a Franklin with different pickups I can always find my way home......

I like having more control on the amp so using the Fender pickup would force me to use up the lows and some mids from other sources leaving me with very little control to battle the room and stage tones........So for the most direct path home it is important that I choose all of my gear very carefully to balance out the tonal qualities I listen for, so I never lose control of my tone.

If I understand you correctly, You are adamantly saying because you and others are hearing a difference in tone and have developed a desire for certain pickups with certain guitars that pickups are more than EQ....I'm still waiting to hear your definition of what "more" is? Wink

PF

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Paul.. On these pages years ago, I remember someone posted some clips of a guy playing a steel that was a dead ringer for the unique tone Pete Klienow became famous for.. One of the great players from texas if I am recalling correctly. I would have sworn he had used an old style cable Fender and the same effects Pete used, whatever they were.. I recall it was simply an Emmons PP and amp, and some creative EQ work. I was mightily impressed. Pete's signature sound done to perfection on an Emmons...
There are sound clips I recall being posted here where I have heard guys make various pedal steel guitars sound really close to acoustic resonators using EQ techniques...

Look I have no argument with what you are saying. Using your main Franklin guitar and the right chain after it, there is probably no sound you could not cop, if you wanted to.

Let put it this way.. There are intangibles of feel, touch, response in different pickups.. We may perceive that as "better tone"...
As a long time tinkerer I have done dozens of pickup swaps... As I stated, a strat or tele player that puts a set of Fralins in his guitar has taken his sound to another level, yet the pickups are identical in output, windings etc as the stock pickups he took out. There is just a massive difference to his ears. Again, so much is intangible, and I just don't have the brain power to define it. [I'll get Dr Dave Mudgett to do it for me, he knows all those $5 words!]

Your friend Brent Mason used a mini humbucker in the neck position of his tele instead of the stock style pickup, from what I remember.. The sound of that mini simply cannot be reproduced by the tele pickup.. Totally different response on so many levels. Power, bite, "feel", sustain.. It really is much more than EQ to me... There is a reason why people seek out old guitar pickups. The windings, magnets, and construction methods made these pickups superior in tone to current pickups in the minds of many players.. Paul, I can't define it. I can just feel it, if that makes any sense at all.
To a lot of us its called "mojo"... Can you get that mojo through modern gear, a great ear, good EQ sensibilities, and a good signal chain from strings to speaker??.. absolutely.
Maybe thats why a lot of guys simply change the pickup... Its easier.

Many years ago, some senator was asked at a hearing to define pornography. He said "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it"

thats kind of the way I feel about certain pickups.

Some just sound better than others when installed in certain guitars. I really couldn't tell you the reason behind it however. I am really not overly articulate.

btw, I am going to tell all my steel playing friends I have been arguing with Paul Franklin! Very Happy

bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Franklin · Posted 2 Aug 2012 5:33 am

[quote="Bob Carlucci"

btw, I am going to tell all my steel playing friends I have been arguing with Paul Franklin! Very Happy

bob[/quote]

b0b,

Make sure you tell your friends......We are arguing over the definition of what " EQ" is when referencing pickups.....

....You ever play an Emmons with a neck selector switch? Putting it in the middle position cuts the ohms in half making the pickup sound Fenderish by not allowing the full body acoustics to come through as in the full position. That position and a switch in his hand position is most likely how that guy got the Sneaky Pete sound.

PF

Jim Lindsey (Louisiana) · From: Greenwell Springs, Louisiana (deceased)

"....If I understand your point......You're saying each pickup changes the tone.....I have always said the same so I agree."

I've been watching this thread with great interest. A lot of good food for thought being brought out here about pickups. But, it brings an earnest question to my mind: what about a guitar that does not respond differently in tone or sound when the pickups are changed? The reason I ask this is because I once had such a guitar.

Case in point, my old MSA Classic XL equipped with SuperSustain pickups. It was a very nice guitar, but I couldn't get the sound I wanted, so I began to change pickups - to my disappointment, no matter what pickup I put in it, it sounded exactly the same.

In the mid-late 80s, when I worked with Jim Boen for awhile, he had several different pickups on hand (a Sho-Bud pickup, Emmons pickup, BL-705 pickup and his own pickups that he wound himself).

We decided to change the pickup in my E9th neck to see what improvements we could make in the sound of that guitar. One at time we changed the pickup (trying each one of the brands he had) and, honest to goodness, no matter what pickup we put in that guitar the result was the same: the exact same tone and sound - not one iota of a discernible difference. It was baffling.

The surprising thing was that, in a last ditch effort to do something with that guitar, we converted the necks from wood necks to metal necks and the metal necks gave the guitar more "resilience", but tone-wise we still got the same results.

My question is, if changing a pickup will always change the sound of a guitar, why did it not change the sound of that one? Was it a case of some kind of structural flaw in the guitar, or, are there just some guitars that are inherently like that where changing the pickups simply will not change the tone or overall sound?
_________________
1986 Mullen D-10 with 8 & 7 (Dual Bill Lawrence 705 pickups each neck)
Two Peavey Nashville 400 Amps (with a Session 500 in reserve) - Yamaha SPX-90 II
Peavey ProFex II - Yamaha R-1000 Digital Reverb - Ross Time Machine Digital Delay - BBE Sonic Maximizer 422A
ProCo RAT R2DU Dual Distortion - Korg DT-1 Pro Tuner (Rack Mounted) - Furman PL-8 Power Bay
Goodrich Match-Bro by Buddy Emmons - BJS Steel Bar (Dunlop Finger Picks / Golden Gate Thumb Picks)

Franklin · Posted 2 Aug 2012 11:29 am

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Just get you a '' BLACK '' Emmons push pull and install a Fender pickup and there you have it ! Laughing

Couldn't help myself ! Surprised

Franklin · Posted 2 Aug 2012 2:30 pm

Franklin · Posted 2 Aug 2012 2:36 pm

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i like paul's concept of many different roads heading back home...(to your personal preference of sound)!
this is partly why certain good players sound similar on different steels. there are many points that can tweaked to aim you toward what you want to hear.

Jim Lindsey (Louisiana) · From: Greenwell Springs, Louisiana (deceased)

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Folks i would take what Mr . Franklin said as the gospel truth . I would say he knows his stuff after all he does do most of the recording for the Country Music Industry coming out of Nashville ! Compare yourself with what you are doing in the recording industry to what Paul does ! This does say it all in my opinion ! Very Happy

He's there for a reason friends and neighbors ! Laughing

Tone to the bone is Mr . Franklin ! That says it all ! Very Happy

G.P.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Gary,

I agree with everything you said about Paul... No one knows more about the steel guitar or how to make it sound good. However, if his opinion is 100% gospel truth, with NO debate or dissenting opinion to be considered at all, then there is no need for pickup manufacturers, rewinders, designers etc. One electromagnetic pickup regardless of brand is fine for all steel or 6 string electric guitar. The tone is strictly in the instrument, and the pickup is merely an electrical signal to be processed. Many people share Pauls opinion and its a valid one.. However many don't, including many world reknowned musicians, and most pickup builders and designers... I don't know if you play guitar but put a set of Fralins,Kinman or Lollar pickups in a guitar and watch what happens to the sound compared to what the factory installed.

There is a reason people change pickups.In my opinion, its a lot more than just an EQ issue. If it were, you could put Les Paul pickups in a tele, and just by tweaking a few knobs, retain 100% of the tele sound.. Try it, let me know how you make out... btw, None of us can match Paul as far as his resume on the steel guitar. However you aren't giving people here enough credit.. Many of us have been performing and recording for decades for hundreds of thousands, or even millions of music lovers over the years.
Because we can't match Pauls incredible career, does this mean our ideas and opinions are invalid??? There are a LOT of good players that change pickups to improve their sound, including top level professionals... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

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