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Author Topic:  Al Markus' lean and mean copedant
Karlis Abolins


From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2002 5:33 pm    
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Al Markus' lean and mean 10 string E6/E9 copedant



I find this copedant very interesting and would like to explore it further. However, I would like to see it without right knee levers.
I had polio as a child and have limited control of my right foot. I have learned to use the volume pedal with some adjustments but find the use of knee levers along with the volume pedal a tricky task.
If you could substitute 2 (or 3) pedals for the right knee levers and maybe get rid of the vertical knee lever on the left, how would you arrange the pedals and knee levers?
I want to get into the 6th tuning because I like the sound and the possibilities for playing chord melody. But I don't know what pedals to use in conjunction with the knee levers.

Karlis Abolins
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Winnie Winston


From:
Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2002 9:41 pm    
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For a start, I'd move the RL (e's down) to the LR. Then I'd take what is on the LR and put it on an inside LKL.
I have several inside/outside knees on mine and they are east to use.
Not sure what to do with the RR...

Winnie
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Ron Castle


From:
West Hurley,NY
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2002 6:26 am    
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I play an E96 12str very similar to Al's setup... I'll assume you dont want to add any pdls so this is what I'd do:
1) What Winnie said - move RL to LR
2) dump the current LR- I know a lot of people love this change but I view it as just a lick change.
3)move LV to LL
4) Move LL to P1, P1 - p2, p2-p3

now for the hard part- you'll have to give up
2 changes- RR is best bet since you have the major 7th as part if the maj9th on p5
I'd keep p4 and drop p3 (but I'd change p4
to pull both G# down to G get rid of 7str
F# to G change- leave the low A- the F#/G with the 2 C# pulled to D make for another nice maj7th)

anyway if you do add another pdl you could
get back the B-Bb change.
hope this make some sense.


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Donny Hinson


From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2002 7:49 am    
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Well, with 10 changes and 21 pulls, I really don't think it quite qualifies as "lean". However, he does have some interesting stuff in there.
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Earnest Bovine


From:
Los Angeles CA USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2002 7:52 am    
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This reminds me of Red Rhodes.

Red Rhodes from Winnie Winston book:

LKL LKV LKR 1 2 3 4 RKL RKR

F
Bb
G +Ab +Ab
Eb ++F ++F -D
C +Db +Db ++D +Db
Bb +B -A ++C
G +Ab -Gb
Eb ++F
Db -C +D
Bb --Ab

I think there are 2 mistakes here:
Pedal 1 probably raises low Bb up to C.
And
RKR probably lowers string 8 Eb -> D, instead of raising string 9 Db -> D. Either way is useful.
Neither of these possible mistakes appears in the older Tom Bradshaw book "Anatomy Of The Pedal Guitar":


LKL LKR 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 RKL RKR

F
Bb
G +Ab +Ab
Eb ++F ++F +E -D
C +Db ++D +Db +Db
Bb -A ++C +B
G +Ab -Gb
Eb +E ++F -D
Db -C ++Eb
Bb -A ++C --Ab



Here is the 2nd one transposed up to E.
The high B string is probably impossible but could easily be swapped for a D# in the same position (I bet Red tried this sometimes since it is so easy).
Or it could be eliminated, giving you another string, which could be F# as string #7, more like the conventional E9.


LKL LKR 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 RKL RKR

F#
B
G# +A +A
E ++F# ++F# +F -D#
C# +D ++D# +D +D
B -A# ++C# +C
G# +A -G
E +F ++F# -D#
D -C# ++E
B -A# ++C# --A


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Jim Smith


From:
Valley Ranch (north Irving), TX, USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2002 8:12 am    
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That might be the tuning I put on his blond and green Dekley D-10 back in the late 70's. He told us, and was correct, that we would have to put a 23" scale on that neck to get a string to tune to a high Bb.

------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@charter.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-
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Earnest Bovine


From:
Los Angeles CA USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2002 8:23 am    
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This approach might work better if you tune it down to D13 or even C13.
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Karlis Abolins


From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2002 10:28 am    
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Winnie, Ron, Thank you for your suggestions. I have charted out what I understand you suggested. Does the pedal order make sense? Or would you move the pedals around to make adjacent changes easier?

LL LR 1 2 3 4 5 6
1 F#
2 G# +A -G
3 E -Eb +F ++F#
4 C# +D ++D#
5 B ++C# -Bb
6 G# +A -G
7 F#
8 E -Eb +F
9 C# +D
10 B ++C# -Bb --A


Karlis Abolins
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Al Marcus


From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2002 4:40 pm    
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Karlas-That is not exactly the "Lean and Mean" E6-E9 tuning that was published in the PSGA newsletter.

It is lean and mean with 5 pedals to work both E9 and E6 and 5 knee levers to work Both E9 and E6. Only 19 pulls altogether.

Just a stndard E9 uses 14 pulls so with 5 more you have the most important typical C6 pulls.

Use RkL besides Maj7-9 also for Pedal C with P 1 and 2. Double duty, for both tunings. I would much rather do this on a S12. But I was aiming for the simplest way.

I used an A on the 10 string which gives A6 from 10 to 7, the P4 with the bottom double G goes to a nice A7 for maybe rock sounds.

I will send the tuning Email to anyone that wants and also the two S12 string versions.

I don't know how to transfer my charts to the Forum . If someone can tell me how, then I won't have to re-write them.

Yes, Red Rhodes had tunings similiar , I remember when I was in Calif. I saw him and he had an E6- E13 setup.

BE has been experimenting with a S12 version of E13, so it isn't nothing that hasn't been tried in one way or another.

I think a newer player should look into the possibilites as they can play C6 stuff with this tuning with the same bar positions and a lot of the same notes as E9, Which will be here forever.

Old pros are too good on their setups and doing well enough not to change and I don't blame them.....al

[/tab]

F#
G#
E
C#
B
G#
F#
E
C#
A
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Winnie Winston


From:
Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2002 11:55 pm    
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Concerning the Red Rhodes setup in my book...

I got it straight from Red. I sent him the blank and he filled it all in and mailed it back.
I probably still have the pile of stuff from that book buried somewhere!

Winnie
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Ron Castle


From:
West Hurley,NY
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2002 3:16 am    
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Karlis, thats it. Like Al I have figured out
how to put up a copedant so I had to spell it
out.
I figure Al raise the F# to G for a big strumable chord, which is nice, but I still like leaving the F# for the tight maj7 with the D-C# w/G#-G picking str 9,7,6,5.
anyway I think it does what you want.
you'll have to play with it to see what works best for you-
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Karlis Abolins


From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2002 5:06 am    
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Ron, Thanks for the confirmation. I didn't know what I would need as far as parts are concerned. I can't wait to add the pedals and try out the tuning.

Karlis Abolins
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Ron Castle


From:
West Hurley,NY
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2002 7:05 am    
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Karlis,
You didnt say what kind of steel you have.
Aside from a new PDL and pdl rod, since your
loosing 3 changes you wont need anything else. You can move the x-shafts and pull rods
and bell cranks from the lvrs your getting rid of depending on the current placement you might be able use the RL knee just where it is for p6.
good luck
BTW I love E69/B96 - would never go back to regular E9/B6!

align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ron Castle on 13 April 2002 at 08:06 AM.]

[This message was edited by Ron Castle on 13 April 2002 at 08:08 AM.]

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