Augmented and diminished chords

[Carl Kilmer]

I sure hope tomorrow gets here soon. This old man is
really getting dizzy now, and I bet others are too.

[Erv Niehaus]

I think this is getting confusing.
There are NOT just 4 diminished chords and 3 augmented chords.
The diminished chords are repeated every 3 frets but that is for THAT chord. For instance, the C diminished chord is present at the 1st fret, the 4th fret, the 7th fret and so on.
However, you move up to the 3rd fret, the 6th fret, the 9th fret and you have the D diminished chord and likewise for the E diminished, the F diminished and so forth all the way up the neck.

Likewise for the augmented chords.
The C augmented chord is present at the 3rd fret, the 7th fret and the 11th fret.
You get the D augmented chord on the 1st fret, the 5th fret and the 9th fret.
The E aug, the F aug, the G aug as so forth up the neck.

[Pete Burak]

I look forward to your vid, Micky!

My beginners lesson for basic Dim/Aug chords is as follows.

"Open" position (pedals up).
A+B position (pedals down).

Diminished = Pedals-up with E>F lever enguaged.
Augmented = Pedals-down with the E>F lever enguaged.

Then I demonstrate the Dim, one fret back from an open G chord at the third fret with the F lever enguaged, and how it builds tension, repeats every 3 frets, and resolves to an open G.

To this day I use "I Can Help" in the Key of G, to demonstrate the Aug at the 5th fret D chord with A+B and the F-Lever enguaged.

The next question is usually...
How do you play a Maj7 on this thing?

[Clete Ritta]

Mickey is right (he usually is). There are only 3 different diminished chords (whole diminished) and there are only 4 different augmented chords. The fact that they repeat means that the repeated chord is an inversion of the first and therefore the same chord. The different chords are a fret away from each other.

Clete

[Diego Sciocchetti]

Is this video already online?

[CrowBear Schmitt]

not yet Diego
http://www.youtube.com/user/Singlpilot

[Joseph Carlson]

Nope. Definitely 4 diminished and 3 augmented per octave. Pat Martino's entire teaching style is based on this concept:
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/I ... Forms.aspx

Or

http://www.patmartino.com/Articles/Guit ... l_2004.pdf

[Clete Ritta]

The warm glow of confusion sets in... Didnt anyone tell ya that Mickey is always right? There are 3 different whole diminished 7ths and only 4 possible augmented chords in a 12 tone scale. Discount the inversions as the notes contained in them are the same, and only the order of the notes changes in each inversion. I think Mr. Martino would definitely agree to that fact as well.

For those that cant wait for Mickeys vid, you may want to peruse this page for a refresher:

Augmented-Diminished-Dementia

Clete

[Al Howland]

I play guitar & Steel The dimminish chords are needed like in always on my mind Willy song.Makes good sounds. Al Howland Fl. 1/14/2012

[Al Howland]

Micky can you put nite life intro on utube ?
Al

[Ransom Beers]

[Joseph Carlson]

Actually, I think this is a situation where we all get to be right. Technically there are 12 diminished chords and 12 augmented chords. It just so happens that some of them have the same notes in them. Depending on the key and the function of the chord you would use different names for the same 4 notes. If you are playing a C to C#dim to Amin you would obviously call it a C#dim. There are some people who think of all diminished chords as being a 7b9 chord.
But you would also be correct that there are really only 3 diminished chords. If you move a diminished chord up in half-steps after three half-steps you are at another inversion of the original chord.
I was talking about the division of an octave. Using symmetrical minor 3rd there would be 4 within an octave. Using major thirds, there would be three. A b5 split the octave in half. Pat Martino talks about guitar being 3X4 while a piano is 7 + 5 (white keys and black keys) but they both equal 12 (the 12 notes).
Regards,
Joe

[Don Brown, Sr.]

However, I think the confusion comes into play, from that only being true, for the Dim7, because it sure doesn't hold true for a Dim Triad.

1 b3 b5, on the 8,6,5 strings with the 8th string raised as being the Root note.

I think you'll find that there are no three notes ever the same all the way up from the open Fdim, until you reach the octave at the 12th fret.

F G# B
F# A C
G A# C#
G# B D
A C D#
A# C# E
B D F
C D# F#
C# E G
D F G#
D# F# A
E G A#
And back to:
F G# B at the 12th fret.

But, I could be wrong. Just my observation on the subject.

[Clete Ritta]

Don, you're right! Thats why I specified only the whole diminished 7th chord which contains 4 notes. The diminished triad and half diminished 7th dont apply.

Clete

[Mickey Adams]

SORRY FOR THE DELAY MY FRIENDS!
The boss has had me flying every day for about 2 weeks....Ill get it in this weekend!

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Thanks Clete, I thought that might end some of the confusion. To show the inversions of notes that repeat themselves in each of the (three) families is to stack another minor 3rd on top of the others I wrote out. It then becomes more clear to some of the new/er folks starting out.

Code: Select all

Frets 0  F G# B D
      1  ----------- F# A C D#
      2  ------------------------ G A# C# E 
      3  G# B D F
      4  ----------- A C D# F# 
      5  ------------------------ A# C# E G 
      6  B D F G#
      7  ----------- C D# F# A
      8  ------------------------ C# E G A# 
      9  D F G# B
     10  ----------- D# F# A C
     11  ------------------------ E G A# C# 

I felt it may be of some help.......

Edited to add that you have three different inversions here, as opposed with a Maj, there are only (I believe) two, a 1st and 2nd inversion before it reverts back to the start, an octave higher.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that........

Here's one more worth mentioning, concerning inversions:

Take a traid say the C chord (or any other one). There are 6 possible ways of arranging all three of the notes, but only two valid ways, As in:

Code: Select all

C, E, G  Chord Triad
C, G, E  Not
E, G, C  1st Inversion, moves the Root to the Top 
E, C, G  Not
G, C, E  2nd Inversion, moves the Maj 3rd to the top
G, E, C  Not

The point being, just because all of the notes look to be the same, they don't always hold the same Interval relationship, depending on how they are stacked........

[Ransom Beers]

Well Mickey ,I wish you good luck in your endeavor to enlighten us other guys,thanks for your efforts!I'm be looking forward to the video too.

[Jimmy Lewis]

Mickey had to get my parts order together today so now he is free to make the video. I know where the chords are I just need another pedal on my guitar to get another inversion of the ONE chord I know.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

as mentioned, the most common way to get a diminished chord is by engaging the F lever
(raises the Es strings 4 & 8 a half tone)

another way to get them is by engaging pedals A & B, Lever E (lowers Es strings 4 & 8 a half tone) & lever V
(vertical that lowers string 5 & 10 a half step)

[Clete Ritta]

You can also add the B pedal to CrowBears suggestion for a giant whole diminished 7th chord across all strings except string 9.

Clete

[Ransom Beers]

I think I'll wait for the movie,I've read the book.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

you're right Clette
i omitted pedal B
corrected

[Mickey Adams]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UggHZT-FHIY