Long scale steels and string gauges

[Mike Neer]

Basil, you should that I always give your posts much consideration and I hold your insight in the highest regard. I just would rather not answer until I've had time to digest it, in order to not look foolish.

Looking at your 26" Stringmaster, I see that for the low B string on each neck you use a much different gauge (a .046 on the E13 and a .038 on the B11). Care to explain that?

[basilh]

Drat, dear me, and doggone it, i've boo boo'd....046" it should be.. I'll just go "back in Time" and redress the matter..

The Gauges may not be equal tension, but they ARE equal feel, to me at least. What matters for me is to be able to exploit the whole dynamic range of my right hand, from pp to fff, and with lighter strings the fff tends to give the notes an unacceptable pitch variance. i.e. sounding slightly sharp initially.

I subconsciously use pick blocking, and I find that lighter strings tend to accentuate the sound of the picks when I grasp the strings, probably because lighter strings have a greater excursion of lateral movement and the force of the picks touching them is amplified by the extra velocity.

It's now 06:14am and four hours since I finished my gig. I'm now unwound and ready for bed.. Goodnight.. I iz gone..
I notice it's 8:50 wherever this is located..strange the differing time zones.. over here we have a nominative of "Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time" for the Sandwich Islands Area. HAST.

[Bob Snelgrove]

GeorgeBoards goes slightly different but close -- what we call a heavier professional set, recommended for players with a strong right hand technique.

lo to high .052 A -.046 C -.038 E - .032 G - .026w A -.020p C -.017 E .014 G

Hope this adds to the discussion.

What scale, George?


bob

[Mike Neer]

Drat, dear me, and doggone it, i've boo boo'd....046" it should be.. I'll just go "back in Time" and redress the matter..

The Gauges may not be equal tension, but they ARE equal feel, to me at least. What matters for me is to be able to exploit the whole dynamic range of my right hand, from pp to fff, and with lighter strings the fff tends to give the notes an unacceptable pitch variance. i.e. sounding slightly sharp initially.

I subconsciously use pick blocking, and I find that lighter strings tend to accentuate the sound of the picks when I grasp the strings, probably because lighter strings have a greater excursion of lateral movement and the force of the picks touching them is amplified by the extra velocity.

It's now 06:14am and four hours since I finished my gig. I'm now unwound and ready for bed.. Goodnight.. I iz gone..
I notice it's 8:50 wherever this is located..strange the differing time zones.. over here we have a nominative of "Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time" for the Sandwich Islands Area. HAST.

Basil, I've noticed the more elastic feel of the wound strings compared to the plain strings and know I could easily raise my gauges on the wound strings with no ill effect, but there is something about the tone that I am enjoying a little more. There seems to be more sustain and a fatter bottom, for some inexplicable reason. This is also helping me to gain a bit more control of my right hand. After years of playing very forcefully, I believe I've begun to tame it.

It's nice to know there's someone else out there who gets as little sleep as me.

[Steve Ahola]

After re-reading this thread from start to finish I do think it is a good idea to know the actual tensions on your strings- one reason would be so that you don't exceed the physical capabilities of the instrument. However as Basil said you don't necessarily want all of the tensions to be equal, with equal feel being more important than equal tension. Bottom line is getting a good sound from your steel and there is no formula for that (other than hard work and diligence).

One other point: some people keep the first string a little bit larger since it helps support the weight of the steel. Like using an .015 instead of an .014. And I might increase the bottom string from .036 to .038 for the same reason. One last point: it seems like each lap steel has its own personality- certain tunings and certain gauges seem to work better than others. Science might help us understand what is going on but it should be our servant and not our master.

Steve Ahola

[Paul Warnik]

I've been playing long scale Bigsbys and more recently a extra long 26" Fender Stringmaster-what it comes down to (from my perspective) is the longer the scale,the thinner the string guages are needed.

[Steve Ahola]

Isn't the true scale length from the ball end of the string to the tuning peg?

No, the scale length is the length of the string that vibrates between the nut and the bridge. The rest is just extra string. There are many different tailpiece and tuner arrangements, none of which affect the scale length.

I still might have to disagree. Yes, the scale length is what you describe, but as far as string tension, I still feel the *total* length of the string counts.

Again I refer to the fender/gibson scenario.

http://www.noyceguitars.com/Technotes/Articles/T3.html

bob

Bob: I read the link and I believe that the author's premise is that it is easier to bend a string on a regular guitar when the total length (tailpiece to tuner) is longer, even though the tension and the scale are the same. I don't believe that would apply to lap steel unless you are bending behind the bar. BTW running the strings through the body (as with a tele) should make it easier to bend the strings as compared to a hardtail strat. Thanks for posting the link!

Steve Ahola

[Peter den Hartogh]

Here is a String Tension Calculator for Windows you can download.
Here is the description:
http://www.kennaquhair.com/ustc.htm

And here is the Install ZIP file:
http://www.kennaquhair.com/ustcv202.zip

It has 3 functions:

[basilh]

Nice find Peter, most useful.

I think that the confusion between Tension and feel is best explained thus :"Tension and Compliance: String tension is completely defined by three factors: the pitch the string is tuned to, its vibrating length, and its mass (weight) per unit of length. Those interested in the formula by which these factors are related to pitch should take a look at page on this website about String Tension. Conventional wisdom has it that a number of other factors affect string tension. Some of these are (in no particular order):

The length of the string between the string anchor and the saddle of the bridge;

The length of the string between the tuning machine post or peg and the nut;

The breakover angle of the string at the bridge and/or the nut;

Once again, looking at the formula it is clear that none of these have any affect whatsoever on string tension. But it is both possible and in some cases likely that some or all of these can affect the compliance or elasticity of the string and this can affect just how taut the string feels to the player."

N.B. Extracted from Mike Neer's link to PERCEPTION of Tension and Compliance

[Steve Ahola]

More from Mike Neer's link to "PERCEPTION of Tension and Compliance":

Bob built two simple demonstration “necks”. The first had a number of identical strings but with different scale lengths, the scale lengths varying from 23” to 26”. All strings were tuned to the same pitch, so according to the relationship between tension, pitch, mass per unit length, and speaking length, the strings with the longer scale lengths will be under greater tension than the shorter ones.

I have always had that backwards- intuitively (at least to me) it seems like a longer scale should have heavier strings to keep the same tension. Just look at a bass guitar- the scale is much longer than a guitar and those strings are so thick...



While the mathematical formula might look very complicated, with all other factors the same it is easy to see that the tension (T) is directly proportional to the square of the length (L).

Steve Ahola

[basilh]

The tension of a string is how much it pulls (end to end), the compliance is a way of describing how much pull it takes to bend it.. not directly related..
String tension and string feel are two different studies.

[basilh]

Hey Steve Did you know there was a lapsteel made in the UK called Conchord ?
BTW (I did that tuning thing)

[basilh]

I think that there is some confusion regarding terminology. Players seem to be referring to string tension as the feel of the deflection as you pull the string.. This of course is NOT string tension but compliance or "Feel"..Maybe the subject for another thread ?

[Peter den Hartogh]

With regards to the relationship between scale and gauges here is a good example of the influence of different gauges.

On the left side of this chord-zither there are groups of bass-and-3-string-chords.
They all have an equal scale length, with the tension more or less similar, but the pitch varies due to their difference in gauges.

On the right side, however, the melody strings seem to have more or less the same gauge, but the length determines the pitch.
The angle of the instrument is designed to keep the tension of the melody strings more or less the same.

I found that on my chord-zither the stiffness of the strings felt rather similar.

[Hal Braun]

.... One thing I know is I may have to give up using the semi-flats on this guitar.

Mike, I know the "semi flats" are ground to make them smoother, but if you cannot find them, one option may be the GHS "burnished" which are polished, and while not turning them into "semi flats" it does make them feel smoother to me. They are also in nickle which I prefer. Just an FYI