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Topic: B11th Tuning - Advantages |
Ray Langley
From:
Northern California, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 8:56 am |
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Which tuning can offer the player 132 straight-bar chords, with no slants, and NO STRING-SKIPS? The only one I know of is the B11th tuning, or other members of the 11th tuning family.
I'm not talking about partial 2 or 3 note chords. These are all complete chords. In other words each major or minor chord has all 3 notes. Each dom.7th or minor 7th has all 4 notes. The 9th chords have 5 notes and the 11th chords have 6 notes. In almost
every case, the root is on the bottom.
I've tried to come to grips with the string-skipping grips in tunings such as C6, but that part drives me crazy. I can live with forward slants and split slants. If that is your thing, this tuning offers plenty of them. But, you don't have to worry about complex grips that require skipping one or more strings. And, if you don't like slants either, you can do a lot with just the straight-bar chords.
All eleven of the chords shown below are played using only the open strings at fret zero. Each of the chords is moveable. In other words the D# diminished chord at the open position becomes E diminished at the first fret, etc.
The Jerry Byrd Course offers four songs in this tuning. I don't know of any other instructional materials for this tuning. I can't think of any other downside, can you?
Another couple of advantages is that 6 of the 7 notes in the major scale are on one fret. In the key of C, it is fret 10. The minor pentatonic scales all fit together in small boxes.
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B11th Tuning - Chord Grips, Open Strings
(no slants, no string "skips")
Tuning, low to high: B-D#-F#-A-C#-E
B Major 1-3-5
A Major 1-3-5
F# Min. 1-b3-5
D# dim 1-b3-b5
A6th 1-3-5-6
F# m7 1-b3-5-b7
F# m6 1-b3-5-6
D# (Eb) half-dim. 1-b3-b5-b7
B7th 1-3-5-b7
B9th 1-3-5-b7-9
B11th 1-3-5-b7-9-11
For a detailed PDF file showing which strings are played to get all of the above chords, created in Excel, click here:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/LapSteelGuitar/files/11th%20Tuning%20Family/
Ray Langley
February 23, 2009
_________________
Bluesman's Epitath: "Didn't get up this morning"!
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/LapSteelGuitar/ |
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Thomas Ludwig
From:
Augsburg, Germany
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 9:02 am
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cannot open the .pdf file
Thomas |
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Ray Langley
From:
Northern California, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 9:17 am
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Sorry Thomas... you actually have to join the LapSteelGuitar group to open the pdf file.
If anyone knows how to convert Excel (.xls) or pdf files to .jpg, please let me know. I'd love to be able to post all of the files, charts, diagrams directly to this forum. I don't have a regular web page, so I store everything in the Files Area of that group.
If you don't wish to join the group, PM me and I'll send you the file.
I'll likely be the torch-bearer for the tuning, at least for awhile. It seems to offer just about everything I am seeking in a chord melody type tuning.
_________________
Bluesman's Epitath: "Didn't get up this morning"!
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/LapSteelGuitar/ |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 9:30 am Great topic, Ray
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I think I'm a member, but couldn't even find the pdf to open once inside.
I was going to do a similar thread but your's is better.
I've long been wondering why this tuning isn't favored more, what it's advantages/limitations are, and why Jerry didn't give more insight to it in his lessons book. I've heard some say it's not that good for most songs, but excellant for a few, like Sand, of course.
With your analysis it seems I've been missing out and should explore it again. Thanx!
I'd be interested in a similar written study of the tuning I use, G# E C# B G# E B E
This one allows most all the great old Hawaiian, lot's of country stuff, and you can emulate pedal steel easily with it. And more than I'll probably ever touch on. |
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Ray Langley
From:
Northern California, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 11:50 am
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Hi Ron, I just downloaded a trial version of an .xls to .jpg converter. The output is not nearly as good as the original, but you should be able to see the big picture.
Here is part one of two:
_________________
Bluesman's Epitath: "Didn't get up this morning"!
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/LapSteelGuitar/ |
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Ray Langley
From:
Northern California, USA
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 12:30 pm Aspirin please!
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Sorry Ray, that merely gave me a migrain.
Nice try tho!  |
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Ray Langley
From:
Northern California, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 12:33 pm
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Ron, I don't understand???
Each chord is comprised of open strings.
Each chord is in its own box....
The root note of each chord is red.
Which part is throwing you off?
_________________
Bluesman's Epitath: "Didn't get up this morning"!
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/LapSteelGuitar/ |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 12:51 pm Which part isn't?
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I have no clue what all that means. I play by ear, not able to decipher the most miniscule of music's hieroglyphics.
But, since you've gone to the trouble, I'll try.
Thanx again!
It was that pesky theory and logic stuff that had me 'hit the wall' during my lessons long ago, and I havn't recovered yet. |
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Roger Shackelton
From:
MINNESOTA (deceased)
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 1:51 pm JULES AH SEEE'S B-11th TUNING
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JULES AH SEE'S 8 STRING B-11th TUNING HI TO LOW: E-C#-A-F#-D#-B-A-B 
ROGER |
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Ray Langley
From:
Northern California, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 2:53 pm Clear as Mud?
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Hi Roger, If I ever go to 8 strings, that looks like a very good option.
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Ron, I sincerely hope that this picture will clear up any confusion. All I'm trying to show is that strumming 3, 4, 5, or 6 open strings will give you a full and "correct" chord voicing. Some of these chord names are hard to say, but easy to play!
_________________
Bluesman's Epitath: "Didn't get up this morning"!
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/LapSteelGuitar/ |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 3:58 pm
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Thanx again, Ray. That should help, a bit, maybe, I hope.
I guess Jerry is one of those who expressed the limitations of the B11. |
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Jon Nygren
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 7:28 pm
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Hey Ron-
Maybe this will help..
Look at the chart Roy posted...from left to right he has B D# F# A C# E listed...this are the strings from low to high in six string B11.
The boxes he has around each set of notes is a chord. And the red letter(or string) is the root note. These are the chords you can play open strings, or bar at the 12th fret. Obviously once you move the bar, you change key.
Does that help a little? |
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Mike Harris
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 8:17 pm
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| Looking at it in this light, it's interesting that it has so many chords available in the key of E major (the f#minors, A majors, all those dominant B forms, and even D# diminished 7), without having E itself. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 8:50 pm
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Yes, B11 is a great tuning, and it has a lot of advantages. But like ANY non-pedal tuning it has limitations too.
B11 is excellent for Hawaiian, Swing, Jazz, etc. because of it's full 6th, 7th, and 9th chords. It also has full major and minor chords. I think it’s the best CHORD tuning out there.
But... it’s not as well suited for Country as some other tunings, like E7, E13, C6, A6, etc., in my opinion. The reason why… it offers fewer options for harmonized Major scales, which are the basis of the Country sound. That's not to say that B11 won't work for Country... any song can be played on any tuning, but C6 and E13 are better suited for country... they offer more major scale harmonies, major scale runs and major patterns than B11.
When I try to play a classic country song on B11, I have to work a little harder to get the basic Country sounds I'm looking for, and the options for those sounds are limited. On C6 and E13 the “country harmonies” are all over the neck.
By the same token, “Sand” can probably be played on C6... but it won't have the rich 7th chord and 9th chord sounds of B11 which are the foundation of that song. Every tuning has some limitations, and every tuning has it's strengths. That’s why Jerry Byrd took his students through several tunings. He understood that a non-pedal player needs to master at least three tunings and be able to switch between them with ease.
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Here’s some B11 info from one of my other posts:
Here's how I see B11. It's a combination tuning. Part of it is A6 and the other part is B7, B9, B11.
Strings 1 through 4 are an A6 chord.
The middle strings (omit string 1) are B9 (and B, B7, B11).
Fret 2 is B6, and Open is B9. Whatever 6th chord you are playing, just drop back two frets for the 7th or 9th chord. For example, A6 on fret 12 (strings 1 through 4), drop back to fret 10 and play the middle strings (omit string 1) for A9. That big 9th chord is the basis of songs like "How D'ya Do" and "Sand".
Check out my tab below to see one way to play a I, IV, V pattern on B11.
The chart below shows some of the open chord positions, with root note A, root note F#, and root note B. There are other open chords that I left off the chart... a diminshed chord on strings 3, 4, 5. Also Am6, flat 5, Aadd2, etc.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Kay Das
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 10:16 pm
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| Quote: |
| ....B11 is excellent for Hawaiian, Swing, Jazz, etc. because of it's full 6th, 7th, and 9th chords. It also has full major and minor chords. I think it’s the best CHORD tuning out there..... (doug beaumier) |
Here is a recent tune I composed for the B11th tuning, called " Pua Melia". I use the Jules Ah See 8-string tuning.
http://www.4shared.com/account/file/88231959/85e1c77/Pua_Melia.html
Ka |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 25 Feb 2009 3:36 am
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From Alan Akaka:
The B11th tuning possesses a richness that no other tuning has. If you don't mind doing forward bar slants then this tuning would have endless possibilities. For starters, you can strum full 9th and dominant 7th chords as well as 11th chords (if you strum all strings except for the 5th). There are of course the 6th and minor chords - both straight and 2 fret slants over strings 2-4. There's a straight bar augmented played one fret below the tonic using strings 2,3 and 5. The list goes on. Along with "Sand" and "How D'ya Do" try "Mapuana" and "Hanalei Moon". Search for songs that has a 9th chord in the melody. What about "Moonglow" in Bb (Ebmb9: try strumming strings 2 to 5 with the bar on the first fret for the top 2 strings and leaving the other strings open; C9th: strum strings 2 to 5 on fret 1; F7th: pick string 2 with the bar on the 1st fret and open strings 3 and 5 - have fun!!!). With the B11th let your imagination and creativity go wild.
Weakness of the B11th: Cannot do a straight bar full chord octave gliss with the root or third at the top.
From John Ely:
Alan's description of this remarkable tuning pretty much says it all. Another potential weakness of this tuning is the lack of major triad inversions other than the one on strings 1, 2, and 3.
However, missing elements of this tuning are more than compensated for in the standard C6th. That's why the B11 is such a great tuning to use alongside the C6th. The B11th has a dimension and lushness that beautifully complements the C6th. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 25 Feb 2009 8:50 am
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| Quote: |
| ...potential weakness of this tuning is the lack of major triad inversions other than the one on strings 1, 2, and 3. |
Yes, that's pretty much what I was saying above about the tuning being a ltttle weak on major chord patterns, the patterns often used in Country. However, there are two major triads available on B11:
| Tab: |
A (root,3,5) A (root,3,5)
1----12------------------------------
2----12------------------------------
3----12------------------------------
4-----------------------10-----------
5-----------------------10-----------
6------------------------------------
7-----------------------10-----------
8------------------------------------
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Why do some B11 versions "reverse" strings 7 & 8?
Here's how I learned it:
1. E
2. C#
3. A
4. F#
5. D#
6. C#
7. B
8. A
But John Ely and some others use this:
1. E
2. C#
3. A
4. F#
5. D#
6. C#
7. A
8. B
The B on string 8 must be a whole step above the A on string 7, correct? Or is it a low B in the next octave down? I'm trying to see the advantage of flipping the order of those strings, but I don't see it.
| Quote: |
| There's a straight bar augmented played one fret below the tonic using strings 2,3 and 5. |
Wow! I never noticed that. This tuning is getting better every day.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Ray Langley
From:
Northern California, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2009 9:36 am Major Triads?
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Here are 5 major triads, if you don't mind two forward slants and a split slant.
And, you can play a two-note grip to get the root on top.
_________________
Bluesman's Epitath: "Didn't get up this morning"!
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/LapSteelGuitar/ |
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Jerry Gleason
From:
Eugene, Oregon, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2009 9:54 am
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| Quote: |
| The B on string 8 must be a whole step above the A on string 7, correct? Or is it a low B in the next octave down? I'm trying to see the advantage of flipping the order of those strings, but I don't see it. |
I use the low B, like John Ely. This allows you to have a rich bass note such as I used in the ending on "Wear a Lei" in the other thread. You can hit the eight string, skip the seventh, and strum a nice chord with a low bass note. Also, ordering the strings this way makes it so that you can get a straight A6th on strings 1-7, by raising the 5th string. That gives me everything I need of both A6th and B11th. |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2009 10:40 am
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Jon, I'm sure that primer on the basics you provided will be of much help should my brain allow me to try this all again. I've had that and more detailed to me in the past from the best, Jerry Byrd (twice), on down with friends/steelers/forumites doing their most to get my understanding of it to any degree. But, so far it's just not been meant to be. Any mention and my eyes turn into pinwheels, I go unconcious, and fall over.
But this thread is a gold mine of info and inspiration and I'll be looking for time to give it all a whirl once more. Many thanx, to all! |
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Ray Langley
From:
Northern California, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2009 1:48 pm More Straight Bar Chords
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If you want to add straight-bar chords with string skips, the list goes on....
Here are all 3 inversions for Sus 2 and Sus 4 chords.
Also available are b5, 7thsus, etc., etc., etc.
_________________
Bluesman's Epitath: "Didn't get up this morning"!
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/LapSteelGuitar/ |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 25 Feb 2009 3:32 pm
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| Quote: |
| (B11) ...Any mention and my eyes turn into pinwheels, I go unconcious, and fall over. |
Ron, Try my "B11 Chord Motion" tab above to get an idea of how B11 works in a I, IV, V chord progression.
The simplest way to think of B11... the first 4 strings are A6. And the middle strings (omit string 1) are B7 (and B9). See my chord chart above.
B11 tuning has all of the commonly used chords, without bar slants: Major, Minor, 6th, 7th, 9th, Augmented, Diminished, Minor6, 11th, add9, other chord extensions. It would be hard to find a better chord tuning.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2009 5:02 pm Sweet
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| Thanx, Doug! If this ain't the road to success, then it must not be on the map. I've got my work cut out now. Much appreciated! |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 25 Feb 2009 7:05 pm I love it but can't really play it....................
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I started to play JERRY BYRD's "Steelin' the Chimes"....from the first time I ever heard it.
I played it in A Tuning........for the first verse and then jumping over to the C6th neck to play the second go 'round, then back to the A6th neck.
While talking to JERRY BYRD one day, he informed me that I could play the entire song on ONE NECK if I played it in B11th.
As if by MAGIC.........it worked!
That's the same tuning he used to play "Byrd's Nest" in, is it not? |
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