When Did Sol Hoopii first record with the C#m7 Tuning ?

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 25 Jul 2007 2:04 am

When did Sol first record with the C#m7 Tuning ?
The movie "Little Giant" has Sol playing acoustically on a fast number, BUT, this section is Electric AND C#m7.
Must be a Frypan !

Click here

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 25 Jul 2007 7:22 pm

Basil-I try to read all your posts. In looking back, I remember around 1934 switching from an Acoustic Hawaiian Guitar to a Supro 6 string electric. I remember a few hawaiian players, that I heard on the radio, Sol Hoopi was one of them. I switched a lot from A6 to E6(C#m7) and I think he played E6, which is relative to C#m7 of course as you well know...al.

:)

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 26 Jul 2007 3:53 am

You're a brave man Al,

Basil-I try to read all your posts

Sometimes I get a little vitriolic, I think a phrase keeps coming to mind and I don't know who coined it "I do not suffer fools lightly"

Must be old age.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 27 Nov 2013 7:20 am

Looking for more insight !! Please

Les Cook · Post by **Les Cook** » 17 Dec 2013 3:14 pm

rule out 1932 as Sol didn't record that year and only one 6 side Columbia session in 1931 ...I've always thought that some of the 1933 Brunswicks were in C#m so I'm plumping for '33

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David Matzenik · Post by **David Matzenik** » 17 Dec 2013 6:33 pm

basilh wrote:"I do not suffer fools lightly"

Well, that's me out of contention.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 17 Dec 2013 7:05 pm

Nah, Dave this forum and its members are not included in that statement, Bombastic Self opinionated vitriolic and egotistical person that I am, I can hardly cast aspersions..

Jim Newberry · Post by **Jim Newberry** » 17 Dec 2013 7:56 pm

Which cast aspersions are those? Bakelite or Al-u-min-u-um?

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 17 Dec 2013 8:19 pm

I don't think it was earlier than 1935. I cannot put my finger on the exact session (and the discography is hard for me to track down), but most all of the acoustic recordings sound like A tuning to me.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 18 Dec 2013 2:38 am

Jim Newberry wrote:Which cast aspersions are those? Bakelite or Al-u-min-u-um?

I'm kinda sure the Bakelite came after the "Aluminum" (Bowing to the when in Rome syndrome) but it still does't answer the 'OP'...
*And one can't believe all that one reads, after all, over the years the 'Folk Process' can radically alter things: For instance: Freddy Tavares' wife insists:-

Freddie Tavares bought a 6 string Black & White bakelite Rickenbacker steel guitar as soon as the model came on the market in July 1935, (serial number 003) removing the left front white cover to store his bar and picks (thumb and 3 finger) inside between dance sets. He used C6th tuning for Hapa-Haole and more modern Hawaiian songs, raising the A to B flat for a C 7th tuning when playing older Hawaiian songs.
He also designed and built his own tube amplifiers and casings, building a second amp into each enclosure as a spare in case the main unit blew during a set.

So the folk process has moved the 'Panda" Rickenbacker to 1936, considering it was only introduced in 1940 Dr. Who must have intervened! AND the C6th tuning in 1936 a full 3 years earlier than the year Jerry Byd claimed to have developed it ? I'm also suspicious of the "three fingerpicks" claim. Still there you have it proof positive that even first hand information from a close relative is not reliable.
Serial number 003 ???
Even a "first hand' observation from a fellow musician is possibly prone to error due to the mindset of that period where steel guitarists even went to the extreme of detuning their instruments when they left them between sets, lest SOMEONE would 'discover' what tuning they used, making the quandary somewhat more difficult. The only way to know for sure is to get a consensus from really experienced players and transcriptionists. What's needed is a compilation of examples of Sol's playing from the beginning to his Electric days, Singling out the acoustic tunes that have obvious sixth AND faux ninth cord usage.

Maybe Les Cook or some other archivist could compile a set of examples for the aforesaid "consensus gatherers" ?

*I actually managed to start a sentence with "AND"..

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 18 Dec 2013 2:54 am

I've tried analysing the position of the tuner buttons on various pictures to no avail, it's not really possible to get the tuning that way, not without knowing the gear ratio and the capstan* diameter.

*Tuning post for the less enlightened.

I SHOULD have posted this remark 261 days ago. Apologies for being 375,840 minutes late..

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 18 Dec 2013 3:14 am

Just momentarily ---------->

Have you noticed the model Rickenbacker B (Supposedly late 1930's) on page 12 of "Electric Guitars & Basses. a photographic history" by George Gruhn & Walter Carter ?

This isn't the actual picture but the one depicted is identical.
'T' Logo and 1Â¼" pickup 1930's ? I do not think so..

Scott Thomas · Post by **Scott Thomas** » 18 Dec 2013 9:15 am

Since we're going off road...

My single knob c.'35-'37 was advertised as a "1940s" Model B. Really, with the obvious differences you described, many sellers just aren't trying very hard. This could be a good thing for us, since it proves that the Hawaiian steel isn't on most dealer's radars.

Back O.T., I'm going to make it a project to go back and listen to all the early Sol I have to find traces of C#m7.

Scott Thomas · Post by **Scott Thomas** » 18 Dec 2013 9:27 pm

Here is a list of the recordings around the time I believe the change to C# minor would have occurred.

Brunswick 6500 Series
Sol Hoopii and his Novelty Qt.

6687 Aloha Beloved 10/4/33
6687 Ten Tiny Toes 10/4/33

6704 Kolo Pa 10/4/33
6704 My Little Grass Shack In.. 11/11/33

6752 An Orange Grove in California 10/4/33
6752 Don't Stop Loving Me 10/4/33

6768 Hula Girl 10/4/33
6768 Weave A Lei 10/4/33

6787 Drifting and Dreaming 10/4/33
6787 I Like You 10/4/33

6865 Akaka Falls 2/19/34
6865 My Hawaiian Queen 2/19/34

6873 King Kamehameha 4/17/34
6873 The Lei Vendor 4/19/34

6950 King's Serenade 10/4/33
6950 There's Nothing Else... 4/17/34

Brunswick 55000 Series
Sol Hoopii and his Novelty Quartette

55073A I Want Someone To Love Me --
55073B Under The Tropical Moon 10/4/1933

55074A It's Hard To Say Goodbye 10/4/1933
55074B Oh, Lady Be Good 2/19/1934

55075A Hula Blues 2/19/1934
55075B Waialeale -1933

55076A On Our Parting Day 10/4/1933
55076B Midnight's Near --

55077A Ahe Nani Kauai --
55077B Palisa 10/4/1933

55078A Akaka Falls 10/4/1933
55078B My Hawaiian Queen 10/4/1933

--------------------------
note that Akaka Falls b/w My Hawaiian Queen is listed under both series, with different dates.

In the liner notes to Sol Hoopii Volume Two Master of the Hawaiian Guitar (Rounder) Bob Brozman writes that Hula Blues (2/19/34)"makes full use of Sol's original C# minor tuning".

Here's an interesting thought...
Sol Bright also recorded "La Rosita" in early 1934. Brozman again writes in the liner notes of Hawaiian Steel Guitar Classics 1927-1938 (Arhoolie) that "he makes use of the C# minor tuning".

Victor 24671 Sol Bright's Hollywaiians La Rosita 3/9/1934

In fact, Sol Bright also recorded several sides for Victor on 2/23/34. A closer look at Sol Bright's recordings could reveal that he recorded in C# minor just days after Hoopii.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 19 Dec 2013 5:03 am

Scott, I know for certain that most of 1933 sessions are in A major tuning, especially Orange Grove. However, I'm going to say yes to Hula Blues and Oh Lady Be Good, both from the 2-19-1934 session.

And it is true about La Rosita.

Just my opinion, but I have have spent a lot of time with Sol's music, as many others have.

Scott Thomas · Post by **Scott Thomas** » 19 Dec 2013 7:37 am

Thanks for your insight Mike, and for pointing out the omission. I somehow skipped over "Lady Be Good". I've gone back and added it in the interest of completeness.

Sebastian Müller · Post by **Sebastian Müller** » 25 Dec 2013 1:19 am

I'm with Mike, almost all acoustic material of Sol seems to be A major Hibass.
By the way, online you read a lot that Sol used Alternative versions of the C#min tuning (from John Ely's site:

http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/tunings/se ... ?link=1027

Does anyone know on which songs he used one of this c#min variations?(on the Ely chart called F#th and C#minor 7)
On most electric recordings I have the feeling it's just the basic c#min with the E B E on the bottom.
Happy Holidays!

Sebastian

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 25 Dec 2013 6:46 am

I have my own ideas about when he started and also what was the actual version of C#m7 that he used.

Meanwhile:-
From Pat of the "one hand" (Don't ask) and myself :-

Sebastian Müller · Post by **Sebastian Müller** » 3 Jan 2014 8:48 am

basilh wrote:I have my own ideas about when he started and also what was the actual version of C#m7 that he used.

]

HiBasil, I would be really interested in your own ideas : )

Aloha

Sebastian

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 3 Jan 2014 3:00 pm

Sebastian, I would love to share them, unfortunately there is a mind set of debunking amongst a lot of forum lurkers,:roll:(one of the main reasons I don't post here very much anymore)

so I'll not feed the wild animals !!

Former Member · Post by **Former Member** » 3 Jan 2014 3:27 pm

Yeah Basil,
why TOY with us, testing the current intellect of the forum. Speaking only for myself, I think you're one of the giants here! All the time and energy you've put into steel guitar and "Hawaii stuffs" puts you in a league of your own. I'd like to hear everything you have to say. Who cares about detractions, distractions, it's all part of the fun, I thought...

Rick Stratton · Post by **Rick Stratton** » 3 Jan 2014 3:33 pm

Wild animals? I resemble that remark!
Ah, come on Basil! I for one, greatly appreciate your opinions and vast knowledge in these areas.
You've educated me, and I'm sure, countless others on the forum. You've turned us on to some great music we would never have heard without your generosity.
There are few people alive that know as much about this stuff as you do!

Eddie Cunningham · Post by **Eddie Cunningham** » 3 Jan 2014 6:06 pm

I am not any expert in Sols music but I don't believe he played in C#min7th. He and other old Hawaiians used the C#min.tuning but David Kelii on Hawaii Calls was the first player I ever heard that used the C#min7th or more probably the A-min.7th =(C6th), even before I heard Jerry Byrd. Ed "C"

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 3 Jan 2014 7:30 pm

Eddie Cunningham wrote:I am not any expert in Sols music but I don't believe he played in C#min7th. He and other old Hawaiians used the C#min.tuning but David Kelii on Hawaii Calls was the first player I ever heard that used the C#min7th or more probably the A-min.7th =(C6th), even before I heard Jerry Byrd. Ed "C"

If C#min7 = E B E G# C# E, Sol absolutely did play in C#min7.

Eddie Cunningham · Post by **Eddie Cunningham** » 4 Jan 2014 4:32 pm

Mike , You are probably technically correct in that (E6th ??) tuning but I can't compare it to the especially C6th that Kelii or Byrd played or the E6th !!?? Sort of a weird tuning to my ear !! Is definitely an E6th chord !! No argument but in that tuning chord it would be difficult to obtain those pretty 9ths that Kelii & Byrd played !! Maybe I'm way off base but I could never call that chord a C#M7th !!?? Ed "C"

The Steel Guitar Forum

When Did Sol Hoopii first record with the C#m7 Tuning ?

What year did Sol Hoopii start using the C#m7 ?

When Did Sol Hoopii first record with the C#m7 Tuning ?

Sol Never used C#min7th ??

Re: Sol Never used C#min7th ??

E 6th ??