Older Excel weird threaded pull rod and adjusters- replace?

[Lynn Kasdorf]

A buddy recently bought an older Excel and brought it over. I am puzzled by the pull rod system.

Weirdly, the rods are threaded at both ends. They thread into a nylon barrel in the bell crank. And there are nylon adjusters at the changer end. What it odd to me is that there is no way to turn the rod if you want to change how far it threads into the barrel in the bell crank- other than by hand, or grab it with pliers. Seems inelegant.

And on the changer end, the plastic adjusters are cylindrical (rather than hex shaped) and have an internal hex for an allen wrench. But the worst part is that several of these are cracked- I guess the plastic doesn't hold up.

So, my question is- do folks with this era of Excel often replace some or all of these parts? It seems like at a minimum, one could replace the nylon adjusters at the changer with better ones that do not break down and have an external hex. I realize that the thread is metric, but I'm sure these could be sourced from somewhere, like McMaster Carr.

[Larry Allen]

Aloha Lynn,I have worked on several older Excels, the threaded barrel SUCKS.. I have replaced them with the newer style medal with set screw ones..I got them from Mitsuo and then later made my own.. the round tuners I also got some from him but started using the standard ones ( outside hex) , .

[John Hyland]

Why do they suck?

[Lynn Kasdorf]

Why do they suck?

I want to hear Larry's answer, but I suspect he is saying that the concept sucks. I truly do not understand the system. It could be:

1. The tuner nuts are supposed to be locked somehow to the rods, and the rods turn as you turn the tuners.
or
2. The rods are supposed to be stationary and the tuner nuts turn on them like a normal all pull guitar.

I cannot tell which way it is supposed to work.

[David Ball]

I had an older Excel with the threaded barrels, but on mine, the tuner nuts were locked to the rods as Lynn suggested. The rod turned as you turned the tuner--much like the Sho Bud rack and barrel arrangement. It worked fine, but I don't see how it would work with the tuning nut also moving on the rods. Maybe someone changed the rods out later on with more conventional rods and didn't lock the tuners or the barrels?

Dave

[Lynn Kasdorf]

I had an older Excel with the threaded barrels, but on mine, the tuner nuts were locked to the rods as Lynn suggested. The rod turned as you turned the tuner--much like the Sho Bud rack and barrel arrangement. It worked fine, but I don't see how it would work with the tuning nut also moving on the rods. Maybe someone changed the rods out later on with more conventional rods and didn't lock the tuners or the barrels?

Dave

I wonder how the tuner nuts are locked to the rods. Loctite? Super glue?

[Larry Allen]

As was mentioned, they’d turn when you adjust the tuning nuts….compare the 2 in the pic I posted..medal one had a set screw in the end, the plastic one has no way of staying locked.. one of the ones I upgraded had vise-grip mark on the rods!.. PITA….Mitsuo has always had brilliant ideas, I have gotten parts from him 1/2 dozen times..
He switched over to the medal afterward..

[David Ball]

As was mentioned, they’d turn when you adjust the tuning nuts….compare the 2 in the pic I posted..medal one had a set screw in the end, the plastic one has no way of staying locked.. one of the ones I upgraded had vise-grip mark on the rods!.. PITA….Mitsuo has always had brilliant ideas, I have gotten parts from him 1/2 dozen times..
He switched over to the medal afterward..

Think mine were metal as I recall, but it was a long time ago. I got some extra rods from Mituso (via Scotty) that were made the same way. The main disadvantage to this system that I saw was that unlike regular rods that you can cut to length and fasten in place at the barrel, these rods had to be threaded after being cut to length.

Dave

[Larry Allen]

I just went through my boxes in the garage and found a set from a 2000 S10 I restored as that was the problem…the THREADED Bell crank rod ends on that guitar are only threaded 6MM, so they would bottom out , however when you lowered the note (end tuners) they could/would unscrew at the bell crank… never throw away your leftover garage shit..

[Ian Rae]

I have a 2017 Excel which is an 8x8 uni and therefore a touch crowded underneath. It still uses a few nylon barrels in places where you couldn't access the screw if it was metal. I suspect that in practice the rod is turning in the barrel rather than the tuning nut, but as so little tuning is ever required I don't worry.

[Kenneth Caine]

I have the nylon barrels on my Excel and they can be a pain. The threads strip and now you have a problem tuning. I ordered some nylon rods about 3' in length and cut them and drilled them to size to make new ones. Fixed.

There are a number of suppliers for nylon rods and you can get them round or in hex.

[Larry Allen]

Nice Kenneth! I did that also and then did it with SS
rods..

[Dan Beller-McKenna]

Larry: were did you find the stainless steel threaded spacers in the right size? I have an email in to Excel, but in the meantime thought I'd look into making my own as well.

The nylon barrel measures 5.5mm on mine. Is that what you used for the steel ones?

Thanks.

[Lynn Kasdorf]

Larry: were did you find the stainless steel threaded spacers in the right size? I have an email in to Excel, but in the meantime thought I'd look into making my own as well.

The nylon barrel measures 5.5mm on mine. Is that what you used for the steel ones?

Thanks.

A fundamental thing that I want to clear up is this:
1. lock the tuner nuts to the rod so that the rod turns
or
2. lock the rods to the bell crank barrels so that the rods do not turn.

It appears that Larry's stainless barrels have a set screw in the end that would lock the rod to the bell crank barrel. So, not only did he change from nylon to SS, he changed where the adjustment happens.

[Larry Allen]

Aloha Dan. The OD is 5mm and the length is 10mm.. I got the rods and set screws at a local machine shop supplier,. drilled the core out and threaded them on my small lathe..

[Dan Beller-McKenna]

Thanks, Larry.

Lynn: Yes, that's what I would like to do--convert it to something like the old MSA and Dekley system. Am I correct that Excel now uses the metal barrels to secure the rod at the bellcrank, with conventional nylon tuners at the changer end?

[Larry Allen]

Lynn. 1) NO do not let the rod turn. 2) YES. Just like any other steel…My later Excels have changed from the plastic to the metal one (Mitsuo)..

[Larry Allen]

Dan, My older ones (1996, 2000, )have the plastic. His newer ones I bought (2010, 2014, 2017)are metal..

[Dan Beller-McKenna]

Well, I trust I will be able to get the metal ones from Mitsuo. Thanks for all the info, Larry.

[Larry Allen]

I have ordered parts from Mitsuo several times as I converted the S10 guitars from 3/5 to 7/5..EXT E9 set ups for me and my students.. Mitsuo is cool to work with, answers my emails within a day or 2, when I lived in Alaska I traded him Smoked Salmon for parts!.