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Topic: More Jerry Garcia madness |
John McGann
From:
Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 5:42 am |
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It's not enough to succeed
others must fail.
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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...
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Klaus Caprani
From:
Copenhagen, Denmark
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 6:15 am
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To Dave Grafe: That was one of the best posts I've been reading on this forum until now.
Thanks!
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Klaus Caprani
MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 9:42 am
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Did Jerry tune up ET or JI?
Also, if it were between Jerry Garcia and Robert Randolph, who should be inducted into the Hall of Fame? |
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kevin ryan
From:
San Marcos, California
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 9:59 am
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| I think Dave said it all...excellent post... |
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JB Arnold
From:
Longmont,Co,USA (deceased)
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 10:13 am
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I always find it amusing to see blasts on the Grateful Dead posted by folks who have obviously never heard one note of their music.
| Quote: |
| Mike. You just have to consider the fact that they like distorted sounds along with uncontrolable screaming and jumping, breaking guitars, etc |
clueless.
That was NEVER The Dead's bag. Grafe's got it, and very well put. Workingman's Dead, American Beauty, and Europe '72 were all exercises in Americana that still stand up as some of the best work of the last half of the century. Mostly acoustic ('72 is live-a 3 record set containing old hits and a dozen new songs that were meant to be on a studio LP but the success of '72 made that unneccesary)they are excellent forays into Country, Folk and Country Blues. Stylistcally, they hold their own with the legends, in performance AND composition. The Dead were always big time country fans, and covered Merle, Cash, Jones and Marty Robbins often. If you haven't heard them you should. You're missing a critical juncture in American music. It's the same kind of stuff you hear Allison Krauss doing now.
Back on topic
Why is it that we moan about a lack of listeners, and then when someone brings a bunch of fresh meat into the tent, we burn 'em at the stake? Just another indication that the majority of our wounds are self-inflicted.
And hey, fellow DeadHeads:Let's not confuse being an IMPORTANT steel player with being a GOOD steel player. It's quite possible to be the former and not the latter-Jerry was the right guy in the right place for those tunes. But you have to look at how things went down to get a feel for his own take on his playing. In 1971 he spent 7 days on a train in Canada with a REAL steel player and fellow visionary-Buddy Cage. 6 months later he hired Cage to take his chair in the New Riders. I don't think Jerry played any steel on Europe '72. Cage played on Brewer & Shipley's 2nd album, although Garcia played on the 1st. Clearly, he figured steel was just a hobby, and the parts should be left to those who lived by it.
I'll leave you with a quote from Cage, a man certainly best suited to speak on the subject. He gets asked all the time if he taught Garcia how to play. His response? "Heck no! If I'D taught him how to play, he'd have been a better player."
JB
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Fulawka D-10 9&5
Fessenden D-10 8&8
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
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http://www.nrpsmusic.com/index.html
[This message was edited by JB Arnold on 17 January 2005 at 10:16 AM.] |
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Ron Sodos
From:
San Antonio, Texas USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 10:54 am
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The fact of the matter is Jerry Garcia not a steel guitar player at all. He tried his hand at it for about a year and said in a TV interview that level of difficulty was over his head. I heard him say it myself. He truly was a creative talent and a genuine artist. But he was "Not a Steel player" and was happy to admit it. Of course you gotta admire the guy for trying and admitting he was going to give up. Now on guitar, it was a different story. He was agreat guitar player who sensitized an entire generation to a creative way that still resounds into the future.......  |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 11:21 am
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The opinion expressed by myself in the above post was aimed entirely at the way the steel part sounded,nothing more. The fact that Jerry Garcia promoted, exposed a lot of people that would not have ever heard steel guitar, for that, I applaude him. Grateful Dead, was never one of my favorites. On the other hand, POCO and Rusty Young did in fact light my fire. The only problem was when RY would go into one of his routines, and stand his guitar on end,etc,etc.
Stephen,
Maybe you can splain it to me at Saluda,we gonna do our best to make it for Buddys tribute.
Bill |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 12:04 pm
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Regardless of whether JG was a steel player or wasn't a steel player, or whether his playing was technically correct or wasn't technically correct, or whether his steel play did or didn't influence your decision to take up pedal steel, isn't the bottom line the music? I mean it's not even arguable that the song "Teach Your Children" is certified hit that's almost instantly recognizable to half the world.
Fact -- Jerry Garcia played pedal steel guitar on that song.
Everything else is simply conjecture and speculation. [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 17 January 2005 at 12:05 PM.] |
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Perry Hansen
From:
Bismarck, N.D.
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 12:24 pm
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| Dave. As I said, I had never heard Jerry Garcia play. So, I have to back up and say that I was very much out of line and if I affended anyone I'm truly sorry. And Dave, If I should ever get a fan I hope he/she is as loyal as you. Thanks. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 12:26 pm
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I think Garcia did a decent job on TYC, and does deserve a certain amoumt of recognition for introducing the steel to the hippy audience.
But what bothers me is that these kids who think music was invented by Jimi Hendrix, and begins and ends with rock and roll, are saying that he was the worlds greatest steel player, while they dismiss Buddy and Lloyd and Jimmy Day and all the others as a bunch of hacks. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 12:52 pm
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| Mike, I agree with you. Alot of people who like Garcia's playing have not been exposed to or ever heard of the masters. I think that they would be equally if not more impressed if they were. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 1:10 pm
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there's an opportunity for education there, Mike. It doesn't bother me at all.
Give them concrete examples that they've heard. Buddy's part on "Someday Soon", Lloyd and Jay Dee on "Sweetheart of the Rodeo", etc. are of the same era as Garcia's playing. Comparing apples to apples there, I don't see how anyone could call those SGHOF players "shredders who overplayed".
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 1:26 pm
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Working Mans Dead is a master piece squarely from the country corner.
Americana fits to a T.
If you have ever TRIED to cover anything frotbis album you realize how subltly strong this "country music" is.
It isn't neccesarily how many licks you know,
but how well, and how tastfully you play the licks you DO know.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 January 2005 at 02:26 PM.] |
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Michael Lewis
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 2:07 pm
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So many great posts on this thread! Dave Grafe, great observations! Brought back many happy memories! J.B., Kevin, and bOb I think address Mike Perlowin's concerns and echo my humble opinion. I'm certain that Garcia brought our wonderful instrument to many ears that otherwise might not have become aware and perhaps even opened the door to many of the greats from that era of country-rock. I also know, first hand, that my love of "that sound" via Garcia, Cage, Rusty etc. helped me find the Buddy's, Lloyds, Franklins, Jay Dee's and other masters that currently open doors for me. I guess that means that for all the things I might want to thank Garcia for, my love for steel is amongst the most important!
Mike |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 2:45 pm
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Mike, Mike, Mike...you never learn, my old buddy! 
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| On a guitar forum, somebody mentioned what a great steel player Garcia was... |
Now - watch! I'll do something comparable here on our steel guitar forum. quote:
Mike Mitchell was one of the greatest lead guitar players in rock-n-roll! His playing on "Louie, Louie" was perfect! It fit the song so perfectly, and the song sold millions and inspired thousands of lead-guitar players. Man, he is a giant among lead players!
Or maybe this one...
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| Frank Rodriguez is one of the greatest keyboard players in all of rock-n-roll! His solo work on "96 Tears" was so soulful and perfect for the song. The record sold millions. Everyone remembers it, and that fantastic organ sound was so perfect for the song. No one else could have done it, and he inspired thousands of organ players. That makes him great! |
I could on...with drummers and bass players, but I'll leave it at that.  |
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Rick Vizzi
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 3:04 pm
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| I know people who swear Vincent Van Gogh was no artist too. Why are some people trying to compare apples with oranges? Why try to put two men side by side and say who can really play and who can't? If Garcia was no steel player than I'd like to know how he made all that music that somehow sounded somewhat like a steel guitar. I think the real problem is some folks have their idea of what a steel player should be, a stereotype, and that a hippie long hair dude who took drugs and spent most of his waking hours messing around with musical instruments and songwriting couldn't possibly be a good musician. Besides Sneaky Pete, Garcia was the first steel player, oh, excuse me, person playing a steel guitar, that I really ever heard, since I was a sheltered suburban kid of 14. But I enjoyed his playing on Workingman's Dead, American Beauty, The Wheel album, the New Riders of the Purple Sage, Crosby's "If only I Could remember my Name", and others. It was his playing and Sneaky's that got me interested in the steel and country music. Now I am really into traditional country music, not the newer rock'n'rolly sounding stuff, and.... I really appreciate all the great steel players out there. I can think of at least 6 or 7 players whose playing I like way more than Garcia's. But that doesn't make his playing bad, or make him "not a steel player". |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 4:12 pm
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| Quote: |
| Give them concrete examples that they've heard. Buddy's part on "Someday Soon", Lloyd and Jay Dee on "Sweetheart of the Rodeo", etc. are of the same era as Garcia's playing. |
Excellent suggestion. I'll do that. Thanks. [This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 17 January 2005 at 09:37 PM.] |
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Jim West
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 4:15 pm
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I can't imagine TYC without JG's steel in it. Does that make him a steel player or just lucky? I say it makes him a decent steel player (wether he admitted it or not)with the musical sense to apply what he knew on the instrument to the song as he thought it needed.
How many players out there, professionals and amatuers alike, would love to have their name on TYC for that same steel work? I'll bet a bunch. |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 4:21 pm
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I read somewhere Jerry had only been playing steel for three months when he did the TYC tracks. Pretty darn good for three months! I couldn't have done it.
DZ |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 4:28 pm
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| Quote: |
| I know people who swear Vincent Van Gogh was no artist too |
But he had an ear for music....one actually  |
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Terry Edwards
From:
Florida... livin' on spongecake...
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 4:31 pm
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Donny, Donny, Donny, I'll bet it took you longer to learn Garcia's licks than it did to learn Loui-Loui ! I don't think you are comparing apples to apples here.
A better analogy would be what George Harrison did for the Beatles. He created signature guitar parts that will stand the test of time for eternity. I think Jerry Garcia's signature intro to Teach was brilliant in it's simplicity.
George Harrison also played an unforgettable sitar part on Norwegian Wood. Should we also criticize George for not being as good as Ravi Shankar??!
These arguments and comparisons are pointless.
Music is good.
...with maybe the small exception of www.shaggs.com .
Terry |
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Archie Nicol
From:
Ayrshire, Scotland
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 4:47 pm
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Dave G.
I was not slagging JG's playing, although on TYC it is pretty poor, it was Kev's attack on genuine players that got me.
Cheers Arch. |
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John Drury
From:
Gallatin, Tn USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 5:00 pm
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Although I am not what one would call a DeadHead by any stretch, I enjoyed almost everything I have ever heard Jerry play or sing, I think he brought a lot to the party. I wish people would get off his ass and stay off.
I don't think his playing warrants an HOF nomination anymore than West Virginia Creepers, Ron Blights, SugarDog Hess', Stan Edwards, or some other even lesser known players that made me want a steel guitar, REALLY BAD!
I bought my first steel guitar in 1983 from Duane Marrs upon moving here from Michigan. It was only the second or third time in my life I had actually ever even seen a steel.
I always knew that I needed one after all the years I had listened to my old mans country music records when I was a kid, and later on listening to various songs like Sleepwalk, Teach, Hot Rod Lincoln etc., but didn't really know what it was or what it looked like other than what I saw on Hee Haw.
As Duane and I loaded that single ten Deckely into my van twenty some years ago, I had no earthly idea who Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Lloyd Green, Bud Charleton, Jeff Newman, Bobbe Seymour, or even who Jerry Byrd was, even though I had heard them all at one time or another and loved what they did.
But I knew who the hell Jerry Garcia was!
I really think we need to show the dude a little more respect. JMOHO
John Drury
NTSGA #3 |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Jan 2005 5:39 pm
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| Quote: |
| I was not slagging JG's playing... |
And, believe it or not, neither was I. Often, simple parts become "trademarks" for certain songs. Yes, they're catchy, and yes, they fit the context of the song. They helped make the original song famous, and that's why we remember them...not because they were musically exceptional. Luthor Perkin's work with Johnny Cash will probably be remembered long after Chet Atkins is forgotten. Chet sold a lotta records, but I don't remember him playing on many No. 1 hits?
For the time he played steel, Jerry did very well. (Actually, I like his lead playing better than Clapton's but that's for another discussion.) As far as Van Gogh, well I was always partial to Monet, myself. Rembrandt wasn't nearly as famous or successful as Picasso, though many critics say he was a far better painter.
In the end, it's popularity that becomes the guage for many people's feelings on certain artists. So it was with Jerry, too. I bear him no malice, but neither do I deify him, as so many here are wont to do.
He was a decent player in his own context that became famous for what he did. That's a good enough epitath...for any of us.
We can't all be Emmons' or Chalkers. |
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