to my Christian steel playing friends...

Miguel e Smith · From: Phoenix, AZ

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[This message was edited by Miguel e Smith on 10 May 2004 at 10:20 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

We humans justify sin in sooooooo many ways. God can not look upon sin. However man has been, since day one, guilty of two major sins:

1. Creating echelons of sin.

2. Sins of the heart.

Because of these two grave wrongs; and culturally induced and evolutionary change; sin continues to be man governed. By that I mean the definitions of "sin" is more what man says it is at any given era and place, rather than what God says it is.

Here is an example. Man says it is ok to lust for another person, as long as they do not physically do it. Jesus said it was not. He said to think it is just as much sin as to do it.

Christians establish at any given time and/or place those sins it will not accept and those it will. Example is a secretary (who is a Christian) lying for her boss when he does not want to take any phone calls. Many a Christian has done this along with unold types of white lies man tells all the time to belong to the "in crowd" or to fit societies deemed necessities or political correctness.

One of man's gravest sins is talking about another behind their back. And yet Christians are probably as guilty of this as any one who has ever lived. In fact once the "fun" of gossip gets really heated, many a Christian falls into the sin of gossip even in some cases to stretch the truth and lies to add to the "ganging up" on the person who is not there.

Yet a Christian will be so staunch in another "Christian unacceptable" sin as to portray that Jesus was wrong when he said, "For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God".

Example: "I will NOT do that because it is a sin". Yet that morning the Christian did in fact give the other driver the "finger" when he cut in front of him on the way to work. And then never once even consider that he had sinned JUST as badly in the eyes of God. Or wonder why the wife met him at the door that night with,

"Honey, the washing machine broke today", etc, etc.

I said all the above to once again remind all my dear Christian bretheren. We are NO less sinners than ANY one else. NOT one! As Jerry Fallwell said, "The Romans did not crucify Jesus; The Jews did not crucify Jesus; the Pharisees and Saducees or the elders of the church did not crucify Jesus! We ALL did! YOU, me and every human who has ever lived crucified him; because of man's wickedness.

Not one of us is pure. NOT one of us does not sin all the time. We have ALL broken most, if not ALL of God's commandments, if only in our hearts. This my precious brothers is WHY Jesus died. He died for NO other reason. To become the final blood sacrifice for all time; to atone for eternity for all of man's sins; yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Sure, we should "walk the walk", we should try and follow Jesus; and we should try to obey God's commandments. Sadly, NOT one of us has ever made it. If one of us could have, Jesus simply died in vain.

For those that do sincerely try, there are untold riches that we are blessed with while on earth. For those that don't, there is untold agony of pain while on earth.

Satan is the author of sin. God is the author of goodness. The two are mutually exclusive of each other. The closer one brings Jesus into their heart, the further satan moves away. Sadly the reverse is true.

So playing in a bar where sin prevails and is condoned or renting a movie that uses the Lord's name in vain, is NO different to God. He can look upon neither. Note: A Christian going into that bar for the sole purpose of witnessing is not a sin. Sadly, that is rare indeed.

So what is the answer? There is only one choice that is good. And that is to accept the fact that we are wretched sinners by birth and ONLY when we humble ourselves unto God and pray for him to lead, guide and direct us are we ever going to have true joy on earth.

This goes for true peace or true love for that matter. For there is NO goodness apart from Jesus. For without him, everything is a lie, carnal or evil.

I would urge every Christian to do the following often. When you pray, ask God to "lead, guide and direct you in the paths of rigtheousness". Then end your prayer with these important words that Jesus taught us to say,

"But NOT my will dear Lord, but THINE be done." And then LET his will be done. No matter what happens accept it as HIS will. And example is to pray for something and then spend every waking moment worrying about it. If you ask God for it, then LET God do it. If it turns out differently than what you asked for, accept it as HIS will.

ONLY then will your life on earth be fulfilled in the way God intended it to be.

May Jesus bring all of you comfort and joy always,

carl

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Carl... amen brother..we are just sinners saved by grace.. as are all Christians. As bad a sinner as a murderer,thief,drug dealer,or porn star. The only difference is that some of us have dropped to our knees and called on the name of Jesus. Cryed out to a merciful Savior who will forgive those whose hearts are open to Him... No .. I'd have to say neither you or I, nor any of our brethren here are any better than the lowest, most evil,hateful sinful person on earth . We have just realized our wicked state at one point in our lives or another and called on our Creator to heal our black raggedy souls. Its all a matter of humbling oneself before a loving Father .. a Father waiting with open welcoming and loving arms for those who will ask to come home to Him where forgiveness and mercy await. Some with hard hearts won't give Him entrance and that just amazes me. I guess thats why pride is the most wicked sin there is.... If a man can't humble himself before God...... I just don't know ....... bob

Jeff Hogsten · From: Flatwoods Ky USA

I want going to place another post on this subject but I cant resist one more. It is clear to me that most everyone that has put a post on here has really made up their mind. To me and the way I think it is amazing to what length people can go to justify what they do, it is a unending cycle once you start down the road of tring to justify something soon you are justifing something a little worse then a little worse and so on. Maybe it is the difference in how we were raised but Im sorry you have to draw a ling somehow. When we start to justify dancing nude Im sorry the line has been crossed in my opinion, a born again christian is not going to do that if they have been totally changed, they may have repeated a few words a preacher said but that doesnt mean they were born again. The only way anyone could do that is if they were in total ignorance of the bibles teaching which is possable but in such a case they should have been told and theirin the responabilty lies with the church preacher who whoever was giving her instructions. There are some areas that are grey, the bible doesnt say thou shalt not play in bars, but it does speak of going nude and to try and justify that just because you dont have another trade boggles my mind.The first thing that happened to Adam and Eve after they fell in the garden of eden was they realized they were naked and made clothes for themself,I think I need to realize my opinion is obviously my opionion and is probably not going to sway anyone. I just cant see why people cant see we are loosing our morals in this country a little at a time. Who would have dreamed even five years ago we would be facing things like same sex marriages and it becomeing legal. We have lost our morality and it happened a little at a time. When we have reached the point that we can ordain homosexual ministers and talk of nude dancing christains it is a sad day in my opionion, I will not have another thing to say on this subject but then that is what I said before but when others take the right to make a stand for what they believe then I think I have a right to stand for what believe is right. I am sure this probably offened some people but this is the truth the way I see it. If you disagree I think we can disagree in love and still call ourselves brothers. God bless you all

Jeff Hogsten

Miguel e Smith · From: Phoenix, AZ

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[This message was edited by Miguel e Smith on 10 May 2004 at 10:21 AM.]

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Well i'm like Jeff and was'nt going to post anything else about this topic but this came to mind . Anyone that is a christian and feels that it is ok to play in the Devils Playhouse ,please try this one thing for me . Try playing Gospel Music for half of each set and see how long it will take the owner to tell you to stop or find you another ''gig ''. I'm thinking you wont have a playing job there for long . If the owner thinks that it's ok then maybe you have been a witness . Try giving your testimony there also and see what kind of response that you get . Then maybe i will reconsider your openion of what kind of witness that you are . But i doubt that anyone enen mentions the name of Christ there at all . I know i'm going to be accused of being a judge but that is'nt it all ,i'm just trying to make my point just like you . Another thing Christ never ever hung out ( so to speak ) with those that would reject his teaching . He knew that all of us would have the chance to except him or reject him . He was a witness to everyone that he met . But he told the Apostles to shake the dust off of their feet to everyone that rejected him as a testimony against them !!! I will try to abstain from this subject again . G.P.

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

In the end, each one of us is invidually accountable for what he/she has done or not done... and for his faith, or lack thereof. Herb Steiner has it right- read the Bible and let the Spirit lead you.

I'm convinced of this: God doesn't despise me because I'm a musician!

Rick

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 09 May 2004 at 08:01 PM.]

Walter Hamlin · From: Talladega, Alabama, USA

This could be my last post, but I have to say something else. Due to reading the many post pro and con, and thinking about what has been said, I have decided that I will quit playing country music, even though we play family type events. Our singer likes to take request and if someone request a vulgar song, he will sing it. Such as "been this far before", "slow hands", drinking songs too, etc. I refuse to play them, I take my picks off and prop on the pad. I have had enough. The other members don't like it either, but they are not as stubborn as I am. The lead player and I was talking about this Friday after we had finished playing a large family show and we decided that this is what we are going to do.
I have lived on both sides of this post and I am qualified to make the comments I am about to make. I played only gospel, for years until groups did away with live music. I now play family type country just for practice and sometimes the fun of it. I have also been in clubs, years ago. I've seen anything you can name go on in them too. Major fights, I almost got shot once.
But I have played gospel in churches and concerts and seen people come to the altar, repent and become born again Christians on their way to an eternal life in Heaven.Never seen this happen in a club. I have seen people leave the churches exhilarated because they were blessed by almighty God. Never seen this happen in a club. I have seen families restored because of an impending divorce. Never seen this take place in a club. I've seen people weep because they were being blessed by the words of a gospel song. Never seen this happen in a club. Seen alcoholics repent and turn around and start taking care of their families more. Never seen this happen in a club. Some of these folk have gone on to become pastors and church workers. Never seen this happen in a club. Nor have I ever seen it happen listening to country music.
This is not an opinion, I seen it happen.
Thanks to you for helping me make a decision that has redeeming, eternal,value.

LARRY COLE · From: LANCASTER, OHIO, USA

Praise The Lord Brother Walter. You hit the nail on the head. I have been following this thread from the begining and you have said it best in my opinion. I have tried to not get in to the controversies in the thread. I was very outspoken in a similar thread a while back that became very heated. I am very pleased to hear of your decision. That makes this worth it all. All things work for the good to those that love the Lord and are called according to his purpose.

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Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12,SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60,GIBSON LES PAUL CUSTOM,YAMAHA L-10A ACOUSTIC,ROLAND JW-50 KEYBOARD,G&L AND BC RICH BASS'S

Jeff Hogsten · From: Flatwoods Ky USA

Miguel

I am not tring to justify anyone nor condem anyone. If the dancer you speak of after a period of time found another job and put her past life in the past and is a christian that is wonderful. The thing Im afraid of is that probably not one in a thousand could have done that. You may have read a former post I put on about a frind of mine that started playing in bars again because I did and it caused him to go back into his former life style. I tell people that become born again you have to start a new life, you cant go to the same places run around with the same people if you do soon you are right back in the same rut, Ive seen it time and time again. Where have I seen this, I untill the last few months worked with a lot of drug addicts, one girl that comes to mind became a very good friend of mine. We meet when she was about 28 she had been a adict since the age of 12, she became a christian right before she had to start a jail sentence. she progressed so much she started a jail ministry and had so may converts the local news came and interviewed her, if a person ever had a total change she did.I have letters from people that she was in jail with that have been totally changed and had their lives saved. I picked her up the day she was released and made arrangements for a place for her to stay. Everything was fine untill after a couple of weeks she decided to visit some of her friends. It was like throuwing her back into a jungle, had she waited a few years no doubt she was going to have and I hope still will a great ministry with addicts. Instead she was overcome one day and got high, It has been a constant battle the last two years off and on off and on. Do I think she is sincere about being a christian, I know she is, do I think she wants to quit, I know so and she loves the lord just as much as I do, now a lot of people at my church tell me Im wasting my time and that if she was really saved she would have quit but I know better, I tell her to keep tring so I dont judge people and I do have compassion for people in those situaltions, I wasnt judging the dancer but if she was told do it untill you can work something out I just feel that was bad advice. Im not on here tring to condem anyone the reason I give my opinion is have have seen so many people fall to this temptation. Can I say no one can survive and still be a christian under these circumstances no I cant say that but I will say that many more will fall be the wayside than survive. I dont want my liberty to be a stumbling block to another person, Paul spoke of this, I guess the best thing to do when confronted with a situation like this is see what the bible says. Jesus was confronted with a situation similar to the nude dancer one time, we refer to her as the women at the well, when she accepted the lord what did he tell her. go live with the man you are with untill you can find another place to stay, or keep on with the ungodly things you are doing untill you find a way to stop, No he said go and sin no more from that day on. I know we grow in grace but we have to strive the best we can to be as good as we can. I dont want anyone to dislike me honestly, and if we disagree on this subject we can still be friends, dont judge what you would think of me by my opinion on one subject. Im going to sum it up like this but that is what I say every post, I have already read one testimony one here that a gentlemen had decided to not play the clubs anymore because of this post so everything Ive said is worth it no matter how much scorn Ive received in personal emails. If any of you can live a victouious christian life playing in a club great but I feel you are playing with fire and when you tell other people they can do it I feel you are leading them wrong. So if I can influence just one and even more to stop Im going to try, God bless those of you that dont, I pray God keeps his hand on you and the grace that was spoken of covers us all

Jeff Hogsten

Miguel e Smith · From: Phoenix, AZ

I'm happy for Bob C. that he got his answer in the way he did. For the many others who did not, be patient, God is not on vacation and has a plan.

For Jeff...I gave more info than I should have and it was (accordingly) completely misunderstood...my fault. Be with God and be happy all my brothers.

Mike

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

I am done with this post . I can only say i pray that God will look over all of our faults and make us a place with him someday . I'm planning on making it to be where Christ is and i pray that everyone will make this same decision . God bless each and all . Regards,,,Gary .

Walter Hamlin · From: Talladega, Alabama, USA

I am out of this post also. Those that lean toward playing in clubs have convinced me that I should stay away from them and I will be quitting playing country music also.
I already knew it was wrong but this only reinforced my belief.
Regardless of the persuasian of a forum member, pro or con, I think they are some of the best people in the world and whether Christian or not, I know I could call each one a friend. I appreciate what each one said regarding my post I made on this thread.
And to Bob, thanks for starting this subject and I hope you got your answer.
God Bless You Bob,and all other members.
Walter

Jeff Hogsten · From: Flatwoods Ky USA

Walter

I couldnt agree more, regardless of differences of opinion every now and then we have some of the best people in the world on here and Im looking forward to meeting more of them as time goes by,

Jeff

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

I dunno. I've been taught that God will not allow anyone to be tested beyond their ability to resist. ANYTHING that comes our way, ANY temptation is something we can resist, for He gives us the strength to resist. We should be able to stand the Devil down the himself with our faith.

At every bar I will play this summer, there will be a friend of mine I haven't seen in a long time. I will have an opportunity to witness to them. Will they listen with their hearts? Who knows, but they will hear my story. In the club. No one can tell me that I cannot witness in a club. That's absurd.

These days, I'm reading Jeremiah. Think of the confidence God gave Jeremiah for his impossible mission. Think of what God promised Jeremiah - His presence, and His Word. No matter where Jeremiah went, he could be confident that he would find the words to communicate God's message, and he'd have the strength of God with him. Jeremiah would not have been afraid of a bar, for he had great faith in God.

(deleted my comment regarding playing gospel tunes in bars.)

[This message was edited by Chris Walke on 11 May 2004 at 11:11 AM.]

[This message was edited by Chris Walke on 11 May 2004 at 12:33 PM.]

Reggie Duncan · From: Mississippi

This is what Skeeter Davis said...

"I won't work where liquor is sold. I don't drink myself, and if others wish to drink, I feel that is their business. I just don't want to be the one to draw someone into a situation where they would drink."

A devout churchgoer, she explains, "I've always said that if the end of the world came and if the Lord arrived, I would never be found in any place I'm ashamed of. When I say 'No' to offers from Las Vegas, I feel I am witness to people."

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

Where you are is not nearly as important as who you are.

Still don't understand the not drinking thing. The bible is clear on drunkeness being a sin, but having a drink?

Deuteronomy 14:26
"And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice..."

Matthew 11:18-19
"For John came neither eating nor drinking and they say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, "Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and 'sinners.' But Wisdom is proved right by her actions."

This is not the topic of the original post, but it is the issue which defines the unwillingness of some Christians to play in bars. There are those who drink and those who do not. Both kinds of people go to bars and clubs and restaurants to listen to music. My intent is not to criticize those who believe they personally should not play in bars. But I don't think those that do play in bars should be criticized or told that they can't really be a true born again Christian if they do play in bars.

[This message was edited by Chris Walke on 09 June 2004 at 04:10 PM.]

[This message was edited by Chris Walke on 09 June 2004 at 04:16 PM.]

[This message was edited by Chris Walke on 09 June 2004 at 04:19 PM.]

Bob Wood · From: Madera, California, USA

Bob,

I've found that some times you have to be very careful what it is that you are asking for, because you just might get it!! I'm reminded of a story I once heard about a man and a Genie in a bottle. The Genie said that he would grant the man three wishes. To make a long story short..., every time time the man made a wish the Genie granted him everything he had wished for right down to the letter, including any bad things that went along with the wish, until all his wishes were gone, and the man was left standing with less than he had started with! Could you maybe have prayed that the whole band would have turned over a new leaf, gave theirs hearts and lives to God, and decided to become one of the worlds best Gospel bands? Or something along those lines? Just my opinion!

Bob

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