Christians Playing In Bands

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

I also use distortion and move the bar a lot.

LARRY COLE · From: LANCASTER, OHIO, USA

David you must have missed the last part of my reply. Quote "Rick I am not trying to judge you, for I am a long way from being perfect. Sometimes I feel like Paul, I feel like I am the cheif among sinners. I will be praying for you that you would make the right decisions." If we say that we have no sin we call God a lier. For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. The Bible says not if but when we sin that we are to have an advocate with the father. Christ told the woman with the accusers to go and sin no more, He didn't say to go and do anything that you want. I surely am not without sin. I sin daily but I have to repent for my sin. Fear not man who can kill the body but fear God who can send the soul to hell.

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Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12, SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

Er... let's keep it on topic here, fellas. I'd hate to see this one get shut down prematurely.

Rick

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 22 May 2003 at 06:12 AM.]

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

To reitterate the topic: It has to do with how professional Christian musicians have worked through/overcome the social stigma of playing in working bands, while at the same time maintaining an active church and faith life.

Rick

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Larry,
I am with you all the way! However, be prepared for the rocks and arrows to be thrown your way. It is not easy to be a born again Christian in today's world. Nobody said it would be!
As you stated, there are two different standards, one for lay persons and another for those in the ministry. A pastor has to set an example for his flock and, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to live a life as blameless as possible. And that includes not playing in places that would diminish his testimony for the Lord.

Frank Estes · From: Huntsville, AL

Well, Larry you are being rather hard, but I agree in principle with most of it. You are being unrealistic in some of the other areas. I have to agree that a club is not the place for Christians unless they are TRULY witnessing and it should definitely be off limits for a pastor.

It sounds as though you think the hobby side of music is not valid because it is not "praising the Lord."

I would simply respond with these thoughts:

1) Having sex with your own wife is not exactly praising God, but it is completely legal, proper and good according to God's law and not just for pro-creation.

2) Watching a sit-com (that is not filthy) does not give praise to God, but does that make it wrong? (I still love the old B/W Andy Griffith shows).

3) Eating dessert does not give glory to God and in fact, is harming the temple of the Holy Ghost (your body) with all that sugar. So, will that one piece of cake take you to Hell?

I could go on and on with plenty of examples and of course, anything that is good can be made wrong by exceeding moderation.

Larry, it is too easy to become a harsh critic to the point of being unrealistic and it really makes one's testimony ineffective. Never compromise on sin, but don't pretend to no longer be human either!

John Cox · From: Texas, USA

You christians show your inteligence by playing in country bands that promotes all
the very sins your trying to rid us of.I
don't belive and don't want to belive in
a higher being and I really resent the fact
that you guys are spouting your religion
on here. Each to his own.

J C.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

My mother's godson is an ordained Episcopal minister of more than 25 years.
His mother was my godmother.

I flew him over to Paris to marry me with a local catholic priest to make my wife's family happy too.
6 hours before he got here another plane blew up off Long Island, Flight 800 (or 400).

Rev. Phil was invited to participate in the Paris memorial service for the victims.
But that was happening after the wedding.
We all had some fine red wine with dinner, Phil very much enjoyed it. He was not drunk, no one was.
I played with the jazz band so did my bestman. Phil danced with my new mother in law. We all laughed and had a great time trying to understand everyones funny accents.

Was he sinning... Not in my opinion.
Is a he a reverent man of god and a good paster... most certainly he is.

Was he being bad in dancing with a married woman. No he just married her daughter and SHE asked him for the dance. And her husband a VERY religeous man watched with a smile on his face.
My inlaws have been to Lourdes several times and prayed for me and my wife there. This I call very devout christianity.

Should Rev. Phil have not enjoyed the evening, the music and the dancing for proprieties sake.
Not on your tintype.

Did the bishop of Paris think any less of him and berate him for acting un-godly... no,
he asked him if he had a good time at the wedding. They discussed it at length.
Then they went and celebrated a mass for the flight victims. And we went to lunch with him after.

If anyone says this paster has done wrong I will not believe you.

Drunken-ness and wanton carnality are sins...
Having a glass of wine and dancing to good music are not.
And you will never convince me otherwise.

To the point if Rev. Rick wants to play music and doesn't allow temptations to get the better of him.
That is between him and God, not him and anyone on earth. And I'm sure Phil would like to listen to him do it too.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 May 2003 at 08:55 AM.]

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

This is an open forum and this is a healthy discussion for Christian steelers. Larry, I think you understand the problem. It is a dilema and I wrestle with it. I try to promote good will and turn away from immoral behavior when I see it. The problem is that that bar life promotes it. I sometimes think that the self indulgence of playing steel is an evil, but I get compliments from people nearly every weekend I play (figure that one out!).

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

"Give praises to the LORD on an instrument of 10 strings" Psalm 33:2

Miguel e Smith · From: Phoenix, AZ

Rick, you've obviously not only expressed your own concerns and feelings but triggered a variety of feelings and opinions in others. Not to make a literal comparison, but this is akin to the variety of tastes and preferences we all have in music itself. Some like this and some like that and I suspect it will always be that way.

I don't doubt you are dealing with some pressure from the Bible Belt and because I've lived in it for most of my life, I do understand.

A lot has been printed, said and sung about WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) over the last number of years. Like some others, I do not believe that, if He were walking among us now, He would be hanging out at the local First Baptist, Church of Christ or other organized churches. I believe He'd be at pub's, casinos, dance halls and any other place that people in need would be. On further thought, He probably WOULD be hanging out at some churches as well as many of them have as much human drama, character and short-comings as any bar might have....they just hide it better.

It's been said in these posts already, but I believe also that it comes down to our personal convictions based on our personal knowledge and relationship with Him...not the pressure placed on us necessarily by others. A lot of terrible things were said about Jesus when he walked among thieves and whores but He knew His heart and kept His purpose clear.

Rick, I believe that you or anyone else should go with what you feel is right for you and then be forgiving enough to allow others to feel the worst if they must. The gospel police were not created by Jesus but by man. Nuff said, now go kick some musical butt!

Mike

Nathan Delacretaz · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Wow, Rick - powerful story - and a familiar feeling for many of us. Even if it's not church, there may be other elements of the social establishment that tell us a musician's life is impractical (if not wholly destructive): careers, relatives, our own nagging sense of socio-economic status, etc. Yet somehow we continue, letting that enthusiasm and talent lead us through the uncertainty. It's an act of faith to listen to those forces and not cave in to the potentially decadent lifestyle, not to mention the criticism from outside...if that's not a manifestation of faith and strength (forging ahead through the doubt and fear), I don't know what is! Surely a benevolent creator, with humanity's many crises on his plate, could appreciate that...?

Miguel e Smith · From: Phoenix, AZ

This message is from Miguel's wife...call me T. Miguel mentioned a subject submitted by Rick about Christians playing in bands. I wanted to share my story with Rick.

I was married to a minister for 25 years. I am an ordained minister myself. I served God by singing & teaching in church most of my life. After my divorce, I felt my musical life was over...since that was the only expression I'd known. When Miguel and I were divinely brought together & married, he had a wonderful vision of making "new" music together. I say new, because our musical history was with my 2 Contemporary Christian projects.

Now, we have many doors open to us to provide entertainment for secular audiences. We've recently been asked to include "gospel" songs to some of our shows. This has sparked a "revival" (sorry, couldn't resist) of our Christian music...that we co-wrote together over 10 years ago.

I was recently offered an opportunity to join a church staff as Minister of Music. Although honored, I was reminded that God had done so much to get music He wrote thru me to an audience of unchurched listeners. Why would I put my talent back under a bushel?

Rick...I feel when God opens a door His Annointing and hand go with us no matter what type of music we play. The Bible says in Micah 6:8..."this is what is good, do justly, love mercy...and walk humbly with God." If we keep our heart right and walk where He tells us...it could take us to some amazing places, it sure did HIM!!

Thanks for listening!!

Let the peace of God RULE!!!

T.

[This message was edited by Miguel e Smith on 22 May 2003 at 11:43 AM.]

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The discussion of religion per se is off topic for the Steel Guitar Forum. Feel free to respond to the original post, but if you want to talk about other Christianity issues I suggest that you visit the Christian Steel Guitar Message Board.

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Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
-System Administrator

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Rick McDuffie, that first post of yours about "when I play, I feel God's pleasure", Man, that is so deep and beautiful. I believe in God and the music connection, but keep it to myself most of the time and don't go to church cause I don't believe allot of the stuff your supposed to have blind faith in. That quote you shared has moved me. Thank you...

Paul Osbty · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

What about the good ol', near-cliche, "Make a joyful noise"?

I would think an Army Chaplain in the midst of conflict has a bigger burden to bear. Playing music in a bar? I think we have a much easier "conflict"!

All faiths, including agnosticism, embrace all of the arts. Enjoy.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Frank Estes brings up some good points that would seem as if they should be obvious but many people apparantly forget. It would be impossible for everything in a person's life to be for the Glory of God, and not everything else is sin.

Also, though I posted previously about my own experiences, I do have to say that getting down to the nitty gritty, it's one thing to be a Christian and play in bars and the like, some people don't approve of a Christian being there at all for any reason and some see nothing wrong with it as long as he still acts in a Christian manner; but I'm sure that a church Preacher/Reverend/Pastor will be held to a different standard than your average Christian.

Probably most will feel that he should not be there, and I can understand this though I'm not saying I agree with it nor disagree with it. If I knew the man and knew he was a sincere Christian and had no interest in typical bar activities I wouldn't care where he went. If I did not know of the man's character, I might wonder.

That's the problem, anyone who doesn't really know the person is likely to wonder of the true character of the man, and this could be considered as "an appearance of evil". Yes if Jesus was here today He probably would be in all kinds of places talking to all kinds of people, including the worst stinking, smoke-filled bars... but I have to admit, I doubt if He'd be playing in the band. BUT...we're NOT Jesus. We are to try to be LIKE Him as much as we can, but we're still only human. As human beings, we have to go where our jobs take us.

Suppose you're a carpenter...Jesus was.... do you only build houses for Christians leading lives you approve of? No matter what your vocation you have to do your job. If you work for Radio Shack, you don't know if that computer you just sold is going to be used in a church or to visit porno sites, do you? Do you ask the customer? Of course not..... An average person, even Christians can't worry about these kinds of things, it's beyond our control. However, a Preacher again is held to higher standards and therefore has to be concerned with some things the rest of us can shrug off as "no one's business".

Maybe it isn't right but that's how it is. A bar isn't the same as having a glass of wine and a dance at a wedding party or any kind of typical social gathering, let's admit that. There are all kinds of people in the bars, some who are there to get drunk and pick somebody up and some who just want to hear a band and have a beer or coke. In fact you find all kinds of people everywhere, not just the bars. We all know that, but the bars still have the reputation of being not-so-nice places and honestly after 30 years of playing in them I'd have to say most of them deserve it.

A little background on myself: I was a good Christian kid who started playing in bars just to play music and make a few bucks when I was 15, never cared about drinking, never tried to get any beer or booze. In my early 20's I was engaged to a girl I now refer to as "the girlfriend from Hell"....put me through the ringer and in response I went a little wild for a while and did all the things people do in bars, wasn't much of a Christian at all, did all the worst things anyone can do. It wasn't the bars that "corrupted" me, but they were an easy place to be corrupt.

A few years later I left the girl and got back to God and had a few relapses but after a few more years came through it. I quit playing in bars completely and played only in Church for a few years. I considered the ministry but decided my talents are in music, not speaking. I decided to go back to music full-time, which means I play wherever the band it booked. We usually do fairs and functions but sometimes we play in a casino or bar and when we do I play with them. I don't believe I'm doing anything wrong by being there. But as I said, I do understand that a preacher is MORE than an average Christian guy, and in a way I'm sorry to say that I do think it would be better if a preacher didn't play music in a bar or nightclub....not because he's doing anything wrong, or associating with the "wrong kind of people", only because the average person will see it a certain way, and it will cause doubts on the man's character and the church. This may not be right, but it's a fact. Personally I don't care much what anyone thinks anymore, but probababy a preacher should.

That said, I still believe that the bottom line is as has already been said, "It is between you and God". Rick, I appreciate your struggle, I faced it as just a Christian musician, but you are going through it as a preacher and that's got to be a really tough one. I certainly don't think bad of you but I have to tell you my honest thoughts of the whole picture, and that's what you asked of us here. I don't believe you're doing anything wrong while you're in the bars. You just have to decide if being there at all, whether playing music or sitting in the corner having a coke, is the right place for a preacher to be. I think most people Christian or not would probably say no. You have to decide if what people think matters. It's between you and God.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 22 May 2003 at 12:08 PM.]

Rick Johnson · From: Wheelwright, Ky USA

This thread was about Christians playing
in bands that require playing in places
that would cause controversary among
their piers. We all have opinions, mine
was "no", others are undecided and some
say "go for it".
I don't think Larry was trying to judge
anyone, neither would I.
God is the ultimate
Judge and His word will be final regardless
of our opinions.
We all have sinned, true. THe difference
is christians should stop willfull sinning.
Gods Word says, "Shall we continue in sin
that grace may abound, God forbid.."
We are to "come out from among the world
and be a seperate people".
Everyone has the right to form their own
interputation of "sin". Our opinions could
be wrong, yet we claim our right to make them.
For that matter,
we can tell God to leave us alone. We are
happy without Him.
Don't let that happen, please!
God's Word is of no "private interputation"
In other words, I can't make you believe
this or that and can't say that I'm right
and others are wrong but I would certainly like
to persuade you that playing in a bar where
drinking and cursing and vulgar activity
is not the place you need to be. Like the
cities of Sodom and Gomerra in the Old Testament, God found no righteous people there even after giving several attempts
by Lot to reason with the Angels that came
to destroy it because he had friends in
there.
Lot and his family(except Lot's wife) were
spared from the destruction. Lots wife looked
back after being told not to.

His word clearly says to "obstain from all
appearance of evil"

God is not a raincoat to be pulled on and
off when life's storms are raging.
He wants to help us work out our problems
and choose His ways.
Christians do make mistakes, but hopefully
they are not the same ones over and over.
Christians ask for forgiveness daily because
they want nothing to interfere with their
walk with Christ. We may not sin everyday,
if we do, just repent and keep moving on.

There are over 3,000 members in this Forum
all have their own opinions. My concern is
for those follow these threads and have
doubts about God. Lets try and lead them
to God and not twist things out of
contents to justify our own purpose.
Again, this are my opinions.

Rick Johnson

Dave Alfstad · From: Indianola, IA USA

OK...I'll try to keep this more on topic.

True, bars sell alcohol that SOME people drink in excess. The majority of the people in the bars I play, do not drink in excess. They are there to dance and have fun. I have been playing in bars for over 20 years now and I can truly say that I have NEVER played in a bar where the majority of the people were plastered. Therefore, if it is ok to drink alcohol in moderation then the majority of the people I am playing to are not "sinning" and I am not promoting "sinful" behavior. I cannot be held responsible for anybody in the bar or their actions.
Furthermore, I would say for every drunk in a bar there are 2 or 3 at home who bought their beer at the local gas station and took it home...never setting foot in a bar. Should we then boycott all gas stations for being such vile wretches as to sell beer too? If you bought gas at the same gas station would you not, in turn, be promoting that gas station (or grocery store) therefore enabling them to sell even MORE alcohol to heathens?
My relationship with God is my responsibility and no one else's. I have played in bars for over 20 years and have never felt a strong conviction for doing so.

Rick, I wouldn't let other people determine what you do in your spare time. If it is right for you then go for it. You're not harming anyone!

Dave Alfstad

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

I think being a good upstanding musician and one who act's in a moral and gracious way to his fellow man sets a good example to others. Those in a bar could benefit from such a good example, since many including myself don't go to church. Look at all the preachers who betrayed the public trust with children of late, many times this took place at the church. Good preachers are needed everywhere a good example might need to be set. Music is supposed to open up the hearts of man so that he can resonate a higher harmony found in this world and feel God. What better instrument than steel played by a preacher, in front of people who could really benefit from it?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Sorry b0b, I was just trying to reassure Rick with his question.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

First for those who say "Go for it, do what's right for YOU". I have a 19-year old son and my wife's a school teacher. I'm well aware of the modern idea of "there is no right or wrong answer, everyone should do whatever's best for them". This may be OK for many, if they feel they have a small circle of influence, or don't care about those they do influence.

For example, I don't have to care much what people think but I try not to offend people (much) anyway. I'd like people to like me but if they don't, I care care. Rightly or wrongly, some people do have to care about how others percieve them or might be influenced by them. And sorry to say, but the idea of a steel-playing preacher being a great influence and blessing to all the people in the bar is very nice but actually pretty unrealistic.

Just before I quit playing out for 3 years, I was also considering the ministry (applied and was accepted to Bible college) and trying hard to be a good witness while still playing in bars. Yes there are many nice people there in some of them, but overall believe me when I tell you the majority really don't want to hear anything about "religeon". You wanna start a fight quick, just start yakking about the Bible, God, Jesus, anything like that in a bar. To think otherwise is being extremely naive. Sure once in a while you might be the right person in the right place for someone, it's not impossible. All Christians have been "sent out into the world....to spread the Good News" (to paraphrase) but evangualizing in barrooms is about equal to the camel going through the eye of a needle. Been there. Any Christian playing out should be ready to be a witness in bars or wherever, but it is not a place to deliberately choose and expect great results. Even I can't use it as an excuse for being there and I tried... it still comes down to: every man makes his own choice, and it's between Him and God. Every man also should consider his circle of influence, how they might be affected, whether that matters, and not just himself in his decision.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 22 May 2003 at 01:50 PM.]

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

I'm asking b0b to close this topic.

Rick

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Just to clarify what I was getting at. I was not talking about going up to people in a bar and verbally witnessing to them(is that what you call it?). I was suggesting that the music of the steel do the preaching and just being a good person for others to get to know might work wonders. If someone wants to know why you seem pretty happy about life, then by all means share what works for you. Any one can go up to the mountain and work at being enlightened, it's coming back to the city and staying enlightened that is the real test.

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