Christians Playing In Bands

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

We just changed drummers in our band, and the new guy is being given some grief by a couple of folks at church because he's playing with us- and it's wearing on him. I'm an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (USA), and have struggled with this for many years. (I don't play in "dives" and there are a lot of songs I won't do with the band, because of the subject matter. I also don't play past 10 p.m. on Saturday nights, because I have to lead worship at 9:30 and 11 a.m.) I sent the drummer (who has also been a good friend for a long time) the following response. I'd like to hear how other Believers have handled this issue.

"I believe God called me to preach AND to entertain people with music. There's no other explanation for why I love it so much. I didn't start playing in a band to "meet chicks" or to be popular. To be frank, it's about all I've ever wanted to do... besides being a family man and serving the Lord. I believe he gave me a gift, and wants me to use it. To quote the Eric Liddell character from Chariots of Fire "(the Lord) made me fast, and when I run (or play music) I feel His pleasure."

I believe that, when we use the talents God has given us, we honor Him. As long as the gift isn't being used to promote immorality, we always call attention to what God has done in making us and gifting us.

At points in my life (i.e. when I was serving large churches and when our girls were small) I virtually stopped playing for people, and I missed it every day. I have no regrets about prioritizing those things during that time of my life, but there wasn't a day that went by that I didn't think about playing in a band- and that I didn't miss it. I was a fish out of water.

I always played in church some, but I was never able to play the kind of music I wanted to play. It wasn't satisfying (musically speaking) for me- even playing in "praise and worship" groups didn't do it... I wasn't challenged intellectually and musically.

I spent a lot of my life struggling with this issue: What do you do when the two great loves of your life (besides the family) are ministry and "guitar picking"? It's a dilemma. Because I was pastor, the folks at church didn't think I ought to play anywhere except church! I was never sure exactly why.

Was it because there was drinking going on in clubs or at events where we might play? Well, I saw those same people from church eating in those establishments or attending those events. I couldn't quite understand the "double standard". Why was it alright for them to "suck the marrow out of life" (to quote Dead Poets' Society), but I was apparently supposed to sit around with my arms folded and look like I was weaned on a sour pickle? They would work in establishments that served alcohol, and they would eat in those places, but it wasn't alright for me to be there. They shopped at Winn-Dixie and Food Lion, and walked right by the beer cases (sometimes purchasing!). Is that not the same thing?

I wasn't promoting immorality, promiscuity, or contributing to the delinquency of minors. So what was the problem? All I wanted to do was to play my guitar with good friends and have a little fun.

After decades (literally) of this nonsense, I finally decided that there was a problem here, but it wasn't my problem. It was the problem of people who brought so much religious baggage to the table that they couldn't see what the Bible actually says and doesn't say.

Did the Lord Jesus drink wine at the wedding in Cana (and other times)? Most definitely, and it was alcoholic, not O'Doul's or "sparkling" grape juice. (I don't drink any alcohol, and have never done it... I'm just making the point).
Did he dance at that wedding? I think he did, and there's no evidence to the contrary.
Did he spend a lot of time with tax collectors and people of low estate (i.e. Friends In Low Places)? Yes, he did.
Did he whistle popular tunes ? Hard to believe that he wouldn't have done that!
Did he live life to the fullest? Absolutely- he was crucified for going against the popular social/religious mores of his day.
Are there any biblical prohibitions against playing good music with friends and entertaining people? No.
Are we encouraged to live the Abundant Life? Most definitely.

I just don't believe that God doesn't want us to have fun. It doesn't square with the Bible. I tell my parishoners... I don't play golf- this is my recreation. Most of them seem to understand that.

Those who don't (or won't) understand can kiss my foot."

Rick

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Rick McDuffie
Tarheel Jazz Q-tet
Debbie Elam Band
www.tarheelmusic.com

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 21 May 2003 at 05:39 AM.]

Mike Sweeney · From: Nashville,TN,USA

Sir,

You've spoken my feelings exactly. I've had those debates with people all my life.
I just tell those folks to remember Matthew 7:1-5 then come and talk to me about it.
I think if a musician is out there playing music and not acting like an idiot he doesn't have anything to be ashamed of.
I'll answer to GOD for my sins and transgressions on judgement day, NOT to a bunch of hypocrits here on earth.

Mike Sweeney

[This message was edited by Mike Sweeney on 21 May 2003 at 06:07 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Rev Rick,
What a wonderful testimony!
I'm not a practicing member of any denomination and rarely go to church but consider myself a spiritual person and understand exactly what you are saying. I admire you for your courage and honesty and your congregation should, as well. They are indeed fortunate to have a minister with his head screwed on straight.

God bless you. Best of luck with your ministry and your music.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I don't think it could be much better said than you've said it. I've been through much the same thing, was playing in a small church when I was 15 and also started playing in bands in barrooms and whatnot on weekends at the same age. I wondered how the church members viewed it, when I talked to any of them they all said "we know you're just there for the music and you're not doing anything wrong". This was a pretty good attitude, especially for being a little over 30 years ago and in a small town. I found out later that not everyone is as open-minded and trusting.

Living in Las Vegas as a full-time musician in the early '80's, the music-director of a local church with a very good music program told me, "call me when you're not playing in casinos, clubs etc. anymore". Later in '96 I was attending Central Christian Church, a very large church there, and they didn't mind me or any of us playing out, though it was understood our behavior was expected to be appropriate as representatives of the church.

The keyboard player of the band I'm currently playing in quit the band some time ago to return to church full-time. He was wrestling with all the usual questions about playing secular music while simultaneously serving in church. Not long ago he sent us all "apology emails" for his frequently bad attitudes he'd had near the end of his time with us. I responded that I understood, have been through it myself, but one thing to remember is that God needs witnesses out everywhere in the world, not just "safe" inside the church on Wednesdays and Sundays. That's all I would add, if anything, to your statement above.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 21 May 2003 at 06:55 AM.]

RON PRESTON · From: Dodson, Louisiana, USA

Wow, Rick
I KNOW what you are talking about.
I look at it this way......
"RELIGION IS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE AFRAID TO GO TO HELL, BUT, SPIRITUALITY IS FOR THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN THERE"
My Family is very much "Holyier Than Thou", and I have tried to get them to "See" my point of view. (I,m the Blacksheep of the Family) "Ignorance and Tradition" has a lot do do with the way we think and act.
Grandma taught Ma, so, Ma taught you, So, you teach your Child, and so on. What we learn as a child, we act as an adult. We sometimes do not know how to "Break the Cycle".

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

Jim, the Lord did send us out "unto ALL the world" didn't He?

I'm aware that I'm "preaching to the (wire) choir" here.

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 21 May 2003 at 06:54 AM.]

Jim Vogan · From: Ohio City, Ohio 45874

I've ran into this sort of thing a lot. I just don't pay any attention to "Bertha better than you".

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Jim Vogan
Carter D10, 8&5 with BCT
G.D. Walker Stereo Steel Combo
Bakelite Ric
Hilton volume pedal

john buffington · From: Owasso OK - USA

I know this is a bag of worms for some but - for me until the Master (Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior) tells me what I am doing is wrong, those who disagree need to talk to Him, not me, after all He wrote the Book and it is He who I am accountable to, no one else. Folks in the "church world" who judge others, need to clean their own porch off first! I have had preachers tell me personally and knowing, I play steel guitar,(and I was not asking to play in their church), "a steel guitar is a worldly instrument" and is not welcomed nor allowed in their church - yet, when they leave for the restaurant after services, what station to they have their car radios tuned to - yep, you got "Hard Country". Who do they think gave us the gift and talent to play this beautiful instrument in the first place? Go figure!
John Buffington

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Reverend Rick
i'm like Larry Bell and i do respect and appreciate your testimony
Ron Preston i dig your quote:
"Religion is for People who are afraid to go to Hell and Spirituality is for People that have already been there"
During our short stay down here on Earth it is one's obligation to raise one's level of consciousness and hope that we don't have to return here again.
but the Path is a Long one and most do return
"If Hell is any worse than here, i sure don't wan't to go there"
it is an honor and a gift to be able to play Musik and entertain People.
Conveying a Good Message and helping Mankind along the Path to Enlightment is the right thing to do.
Thank God for all the Artists and Musicians that have carried the message away from Church and into the Devil's House over the decades be they Atheists, Christians, Jews Buddhists, or a Kiowa medicine man.
the Message is that of the Heart and if we look and listen there's a lesson to learn everywhere and in everything.
how bout that Albert King blues tune:
"Everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody want's to Die "

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Steel what?

Paul King · From: Gainesville, Texas, USA

Rick, I have been there and done that. I have been criticized for playing places even though it was not a bar and there was no drinking. I occasionally play some country tunes and do not feel bad at all. Concerning what John was told, if a steel is a worldly instrument so is everything else. The last time I checked most bars and nightclubs use guitars, keyboards, drums and about everything else a church uses. I play in church on a regular basis and most people like the steel guitar. I hardly ever see anyone going and asking the guitar players or keyboard players how their instruments works. The steel has been stereotyped as a country instrument and the biggest majority of people know any different. That is why I invite other musicians to the house to watch videos and listen to tapes and CD's. I even played a lady a tape of Buddy Emmons off the "One For The Road" project where he was playing extremely fast and all she could say was she wondered if my tape player was going the right speed. I just chalk it up that most people are ignorant to the fact of the steel guitar and know nothing about one but they know it is a worldly instrument. I sure am glad the Good Lord will be the judge...Paul King

Frank Estes · From: Huntsville, AL

I am currently and have been a church musician for 26 years and play in a band that does special events and we do not do the club thing. I have been playing in bands off and on for about 6 years and it has really made a difference in my progress as a musician.

I try to explain to those who do not "approve" of my outside-of-church playing in this way:

There are two roles of music for me. One is the ministry side where I use my ability in church as a contribution to the worship service and it takes priority over any other music endeavor.

The other side is the hobby side of music, where I play for my own enjoyment. Those who want me to give up my music hobby must first be willing to give up their hobbies such as hunting, golf, shopping, sports, etc. Lately, I have been so obsessed with lead guitar (I have a Kramer Striker guitar learning Van Halen riffs and using them on songs such as "Sweet Home Alabama," "Suzy Q," "Mustang Sally," etc. It is worth it just to get the shocked looks I get!

) that I have put steel practice on the back burner!

I have not played golf in couple of years now. This music hobby has really taken over!

I can't help it that I sometimes get paid (even though not very much money) to do my hobby, whereas not many get paid to do their hobby such as hunt, play golf, etc.

As always, we have to work out our own salvation and we need to take heed to our conscience, if it is still working!

For me, the club scene is not the environment I want to be in, even though the girls rarely go for the steel player! (They do not know what they are missing do they!

) I realize there are different degrees of night clubs and some are very classy, but those dives are out for me.

There was a time when financial times got hard and I sold my only steel guitar (a big mistake, don't do it!) and lost all that practice/play time. Playing these side jobs has allowed me to regain the lost playing/practice time and has really helped out the chops. I really believe God gave me the chance to play those non-smoke, non-alochol jobs (Granny Grabber dances) as a way to get back what the destroyer took away when the money was tight.

quote:

Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

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Frank Estes - 1978 Emmons D-10 8+7 #2441D

[This message was edited by Frank Estes on 21 May 2003 at 10:57 AM.]

Rick Johnson · From: Wheelwright, Ky USA

Rick

I'd like to share some feelings similar
to those mentioned above.
I love playing my steel and have played
in several gospel groups over the years.
I have had the chance to play with country
bands too. I just could not commit to
playing in bars and clubs, I would not
be drinking but I just couldn't do it.
I searched for bands that would play in festivals etc. where a more family atmosphere
would be present. That never happened.

I fought this for years and knew the answer
all along. I knew to "obstain from all
appearance of evil". I had no business
going to a club where I could be tempted
to drink and cheat on my wife, thats what
I was saved from. Why go back and try to
straddle the fence. No matter how strong
in faith I was, I knew it would hurt me.

I can play country music without any
convictions, I have done studio work
for country bands, but the studio was
a controlled enviornment.

Its not my intention to cause hard feelings
with anyone, this is just my personal
opinions.

I play bass guitar on a Praise Team at
church, the music is very contemporary.
I would have a hard time fitting the
steel guitar into the mix.

Good news is, I finally found a group
that plays country gospel in churchs
and I might get to play some steel
after all.

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Rick Johnson

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Bach wrote more church music than anyone as far as I know. He also wrote many other secular musics and performed them.

Mozart wrote his Reqiem Mass and the Enchanted Flute at about the same time.
And a few people questioned him on that... he didn't care.
I have never seen anything saying Jesus didn't like music.
For the Rastafarians music is an integral part of worship, and is...
surpirse the same in most churches of most faiths.

Why should it be verbotin in all other places?
No reasons I can think of.
Either you are a proprietous good person in the secular world, or not.
Playing music does not autopmatically make you a sinner or a bad person.

Maybe being a good person in the presence of "sinners" will be a postive thing for them. Not the other way round.

Besides he who is without sin...

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 May 2003 at 12:44 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

First just so you all know where I'm coming from, I am NOT a Christian. I am an agnostic. I don't know if there is a god or not, and I don't believe in any organized religion (including the one into which I was born.) I do believe in the principles religion teaches us about how to behave toward our fellow man. Thou shalt not kill and do unto others as you would have them do unto you are universal truths regardless of whether you believe in a deity or not.

Getting back to the subject, several years ago I was playing in a club and a slightly drunk woman approached me. She told me her husband and only son had been killed in a car accident. She was still in mourning and would be for the rest of her life. She said that the only pleasure she got out of life was going to a bar and listening to a band play country music.

I had always thought of gigs and just that-gigs. But what we were doing made a real difference to this woman. Our music meant something to her, and helped her go on with her life despite the tragedy that had befallen her.

Like I said, I don't know if there is a God or not, but if there is, surely we were doing his work by helping this woman cope. We played secular music in a place where alcohol was being served, and by doing so, we were easing this woman's pain. I'm sure that if God exists, he would approve.

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 21 May 2003 at 03:54 PM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Yep Mike it's more like that than we often realize.

For every sad case crying in their beer to a sad song about lost love etc.
There are several who are into the music because it helps them forget why they would be crying.
Now that to me IS a good work.

All organised religions essentially say 50-60% the same things when you get down to it.
Distilled to Mikes thoughts as a very concise version.

But it's often that other 40-50% that causes the biggest disagreements and heartaches and another 5% causes worse things still.

I'll go with the common ground anyday.
No misinterpretations from over-translation or mis-translation and what the Ceasar of any giving age and place, allowed to pass into the future. Or what a believer was lucky enough to hide from that Caeser.

King James, Mahatma, Yahwe, Haille, Cromwell, Charles VI, Urban etc...
I won't say any one got it 100% right.

And please no one interpret this as a critique or reproach to your personal faith
or philosophy of life... IT IS NOT.

But guess what there is one common thread in all those lives ;
Music for the people around them.
No change of language needed.
How much a unifing thing is that.

Play music for anyone who likes it.
Any one who doesn't.. well it's their lookout.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 May 2003 at 03:41 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

As my childhood pastor was wont to say..."Judge not ye fellow man, lest ye shall also shall be judged! GOD alone shall condemn any man."

I think that about covers most of these "situations", doesn't it?

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Whatever the religion happens to be, it seems clergy and parish have a universal problem:
They think that God is as stupid as they are, that is; ...they do not give God credit for having any more sense than they have.Why do we not know better than this? Look and see what God has done; and then look and see what man has done.

If we do believe that God is Almighty Creator of the Universe, why do so many professing this, tend to treat him as a simpleton? I'm certain that God sees this as an insult.

Many of the clergy are actors, pure and simple. I would never trust the word of anyone professing to be a minister without reading for myself to see what the hyperbole of the Hebrew (Old Testement), or the Greek (New Testement) is saying to me personally. However, in some instances, I have arrived at the same answer for myself, as my minister has so professed.

With enough study you will know what is excess.

Rick

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

In whatever we do, we are to do it for the glory of God. He gave to us in varying degrees, that magic in our fingers. To use that talent is to give Him the glory.

He does have rules that clergy are held more accountable than the rest of us.

The pious certainly would see a pastor hanging in a low life bar as less than religous.

Seems to me they said the same thing about Jesus when he supped with the sinners.

If just one low life was brought into the kingdom by you being there at the right time and place, who would be better served?

The pious, or the Lord Jesus?

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I'm sorry, but I think that most of you are dead wrong. I am out in the devil's dens every weekend. Vanity, loneliness, lies, and self indulgence. The holy spirit prevails. Only Christians that know this will understand me. Deny the Holy Spirit and receive death. Make your choices carefully.

LARRY COLE · From: LANCASTER, OHIO, USA

1.Quote "I believe God called me to preach AND to entertain people with music." God might have called you to preach but he did not call you to entertain but to glorify him.

2. Quote "I believe he gave me a gift, and wants me to use it." He did give you a gift and he wants you to use for him. Cast not your pearls before the swine.

3. Quote "As long as the gift isn't being used to promote immorality." I played the bars/clubs before I was saved and I know from experiance that the only reason the bands are there is to lure people in to drink and spend money and that leads to all kinds of immorality. God didn't call you to preach and to bring people into his kingdom on sunday only to lead them into the bars on friday and saturday nights. A pastor is the shepherd over the flock and his job is to set an example and to lead them into safety and out of harms way. In the Lords prayer it even says LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION, BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL. You can't serve two masters, for you will love one and hate the other. Man cannot serve God and mammon at the same time.

4. Quote. "I have no regrets about prioritizing those things during that time of my life, but there wasn't a day that went by that I didn't think about playing in a band- and that I didn't miss it. I was a fish out of water." God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Any man that takes hold of the plow and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God.

5. Quote. "Because I was pastor, the folks at church didn't think I ought to play anywhere except church! I was never sure exactly why." The apostle Paul said "if by eating meat offends my weak brother then I will not eat meat".

6. Quote "Was it because there was drinking going on in clubs or at events where we might play? Well, I saw those same people from church eating in those establishments or attending those events. I couldn't quite understand the "double standard". Why was it alright for them to "suck the marrow out of life" (to quote Dead Poets' Society), but I was apparently supposed to sit around with my arms folded and look like I was weaned on a sour pickle? They would work in establishments that served alcohol, and they would eat in those places, but it wasn't alright for me to be there. They shopped at Winn-Dixie and Food Lion, and walked right by the beer cases (sometimes purchasing!). Is that not the same thing?" The Bible tells us not to partake in another mans sin. Because someone else does something questionable doesn't give us the right to do the same thing. We will all answer to God for all the things we do wheather good or bad.

7. Quote "I wasn't promoting immorality, promiscuity, or contributing to the delinquency of minors. So what was the problem?" By partaking in it you are promoting it. See answer #3.

8. Quote. "Did the Lord Jesus drink wine at the wedding in Cana (and other times)?" The Bible says that Jesus turned the water into wine. That was to show a taste of his power. It does not say or incenuate that he drank it.

9. Quote " Did he spend a lot of time with tax collectors and people of low estate (i.e. Friends In Low Places)?" He went in to them to save them not to party with them.

10. Quote. "he was crucified for going against the popular social/religious mores of his day." He came against the distorted and corrupted religious hypocrites that had a "better than thou" attitude.

11. Quote. "Are there any biblical prohibitions against playing good music with friends and entertaining people? In the book of Psalms it says to praise Him on all the different instruments. David played his harp to soothe Saul.

12. Quote "I just don't believe that God doesn't want us to have fun." I believe that God does want us to have fun. Good clean fun. I have had more fun since I have been saved that I ever had in the worldly way. A line from a song God gave me "Don't look back at what you've done, When you thought you were having fun, With the pleasures of this world, While you were dying more each day".

13. Quote. "Most of them seem to understand that" Does God understand that? Gods ways are not our ways. There is a way that seems right to man, but it's end is destruction.

14. Quote. "Those who don't (or won't) understand can kiss my foot." Does that mean that God can kiss your foot too? That is not a very good attitude for a pastor to have. It brings reproch upon the church. Satan rejoices in those kinds of things. That is telling the lost world that you are not a happy christian.
It sounds like God might be dealing with you to quit playing for the devil and you are trying to justify it by trying to soothe your conscience.
The world and non christians here on the Forum or anywhere else don't have the answer. Only God and His Word has the true answer.
Rick I am not trying to judge you, for I am a long way from being perfect. Sometimes I feel like Paul, I feel like I am the cheif among sinners. I will be praying for you that you would make the right decisions. You can email anytime. Your Brother in Christ, Larry Cole

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Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12, SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60

LARRY COLE · From: LANCASTER, OHIO, USA

Kevin, read 2nd Corinthians 7:14. It's not too late yet.

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Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12, SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

Isn't it a great thing that God didn't make us all just alike?

Galatians 5:1-5
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."

Celebrate diversity on the Forum!

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

IV-I brother Rick!

Martin Weenick · From: Lecanto, FL, USA

Reverend Rick, the very last sentence in your post sums it up perfectly. Enjoy yourself.

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Martin W. Emmons LG III 3/5 Peavy 1000

Dave Alfstad · From: Indianola, IA USA

People like Larry Cole scare me. Judgemental comments like that are so typical of so many Christians. Larry sir, are you saying then that your life here on earth is now without sin of any kind? You may be atoned of your sins but are you without sin? If not then I'd suggest that you clean up your own back yard before passing judgement on others. To think that your life is without sin is in defiance of the very principles you preach about and hold dear. If we can both agree that there is sin present in your life, but through the grace of God you are forgiven, then why would that same offer not be extended to our friend Rick?
Enjoy your time here on earth. God gave you this life and I believe we were probably meant to enjoy it.

Dave Alfstad

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