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Topic: I don't get it? |
Jim Eaton
From:
Santa Susana, Ca
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Posted 15 May 2003 3:36 pm |
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See if this makes any sense to ya'll.
I was doing some price shopping for a S-12 to be set up as Extended E9th. I wanted the guitar to have 5/5. One company did not have this configuration listed in the price list, but did have 7/5 for S-12 E9/B6. This company charges $XX.xx for an additional pedal or KL, so you would think that if you took a pedal or KL off, the price would go down by $XX.xx, right? Their answer to my question was that if I took off a pedal, the price ONLY went down by 1/2 of $XX.xx.
Does that make any sense, or am I not doing the new math correctly?
JE:-)>
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Emmons D10 8/4 P/P -75'
Fessenden SD-10 3/5
Session 400
Nashville 400
Bandit 112
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 15 May 2003 4:01 pm
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| Jim - there are "fixed costs" that are figured in the price of most guitars that you're not taking into consideration which is why, in your case, "less" is not more money than you'd like it to be. Just a business thing- you're not being taken for a ride. My advice is to get the guitar with more than in your situation you profess to need and you'll probably find that 1-you're glad you had them later on because it can be a real hassle doing it afterwards or 2- you can always take off what you really don't want and sell the parts as there is a definite market for those things (pedals, rods, etc.). Just my $.02~~~ |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 May 2003 4:03 pm
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Simply put, it's faster and less work to take 'em off than it is to put 'em on! 
To add a pedal, and tune and time it, might take twice as long as it would to just remove that same pedal.
Time is money.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 15 May 2003 at 05:04 PM.] |
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Larry Beck
From:
Pierre, SD
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Posted 15 May 2003 4:20 pm
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Actually, in a strange way it does make sense. That builder probably based his price on a typical setup knowing he can only make X guitars per year and also knowing how much money he needs to make a year to feed the dog and still stay in business. If he set his pedal/lever price too high, giving you back full retail could cut into the amount of money he needs to make per steel. There isn't a linear relationship between an s-10 and a D-10 either if you pencil it out.
Or as my dad used to say "Never argue with the price a man needs to charge to feed his family. Pay it or walk away"
Just my opinion, and as a former small business owner, I'm biased. |
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Roger Shackelton
From:
MINNESOTA (deceased)
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Posted 16 May 2003 1:57 am
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I think Jim Eaton's point is being missed here. He didn't mean to take pedals off an existing guitar, but to delete 2 pedals from a new guitar, that he would be ordering. If additional pedals cost $100. each, then the builder should deduct $200. from his guitar which would be a S-12 with a 5 X 5 setup. This sounds reasonable to me.
Roger |
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LARRY COLE
From:
LANCASTER, OHIO, USA
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Posted 16 May 2003 3:43 am
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I agree with Roger. I should be the same to add or delete pedals on a made from scratch guitar unless it is a special promotion.
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Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12, SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 16 May 2003 3:47 am
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Business 101....
The price has been set. Can we buy a car with a sticker price of say $15,000 and say..take the CD out and deduct $1000 ?
NO.
Pricing is set based on overhead costs,materials, configurations , build time and marketing position. The entire package is considered.
How do we know that the builder didn't basically include two extra pedals at cost to keep his guitar competitive in the market with the configuration? The margins of all components are considered with the intial sale price.
Common business practice has the cost of upgrades and spares after the sale higher than the cost of the same parts which are configured on their product at the point of sale.
I say buy the Steel with the 2 extra pedals ..you will use them..maybe not today..but someday..and if you ever decide to sell..you have a common configured Steel which will be very marketable.
tp |
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Scott Henderson
From:
Camdenton, Missouri, USA
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Posted 16 May 2003 5:35 am
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Not to defend or offend anyone but keep in mind most steel guitar compnies don't make a lot of money on these things and if I may, the guys are right...A universal 12 is not the hard to learn and gives you a whole new world of combinations on E9th and B6th...(All the pedals work on both tunings!!)
If the price is within your budget think outside the bar! Just my 2 cents!
SH |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 16 May 2003 6:52 am
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Since pedal steel guitars are custom made, not assembly line produced as autos, it is my contention that, Business 101 should only slightly be in play here.
In business myself, customer is king. It seems trite to me, for the manufacturer to bicker over the price of two pedals.
In this situation, the custom builder should accommodate the buyer and sell the guitar with the other two pedals at the straight math price.
No custom builder of steel guitars is a "General Motors".
Rick |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 16 May 2003 7:55 am
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| Quote: |
| No custom builder of steel guitars is a "General Motors". |
Having been previously involved in the manufacture of pedal steel guitars, I can say that is exactly why a pedal steel builder can't give full credit for removing parts from a stock guitar. They would go broke very fast.
When I was at Dekley, our D-10 with 8&4 had a list price of $1995. Our wholesale price to dealers was $1000 and our cost for parts and labor to build the guitar was right at $900. We sold additional pedal and knee lever kits for $100 retail, but charged less if they were ordered with the guitar. Our cost for them was around $15, so this was one of the few things we made any money on.
Using your logic of deducting the full price for removed pedals and/or knee levers, removing two at the retail level would reduce the price by $200, and $100 at the wholesale level. I think you can see that we wouldn't have stayed in business for long, selling a guitar for $900 that cost us $900 to build.
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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 9&9=-
-=Emmons D-12 push pull 9&4 (soon to be 9&9)=-
Stereo Steel rig w/Boss GX-700
IVL SteelRider w/JV-880
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John Cox
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 16 May 2003 8:14 am
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"My way or the highway"just dosen't cut it.
Find a differnt builder or a used one you can
modify.
J.C. |
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Jim Eaton
From:
Santa Susana, Ca
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Posted 16 May 2003 8:50 am
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I am waiting for my new Sierra SD-12, 5/5, Extended E9th guitar to be finished at this time. I sent Tom my set-up chart yesterday and hope to have my new guitar sometime in June.
JE:-)>
p.s. - She'll be Black mica, w/Grovers. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 16 May 2003 9:03 am
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I would have taken the extra parts.
5x5 is great, but when an idea strikes, you're gonna need parts to implement the idea.
Also, with most builders, once you settle on a price for the guitar with x-pedals and y-knee levers, the amount of pulls you want on those pedals/levers is moot. So I say load 'em up! I'd order it with at least 2 extra pulls for each pedal/lever. That way you'll have alot of spare bellcranks, pull rods and hardware, and endplate tuner assemblies to play around with (if you were to order them separatly later, you pay).
On the other hand, ordering exactly what you need and nothing more ensures that the guitar adjustments will be optimized for your exact copedant at the factory (ie. the more stuff you add, the more compromises you have to make in fine tuning the linkages).[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 16 May 2003 at 10:05 AM.] |
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 16 May 2003 9:50 am
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| Jim did the dealers make more money per. guitar than Dekley? Wow.Joe |
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Jim Eaton
From:
Santa Susana, Ca
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Posted 16 May 2003 9:54 am
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Pete, I played a Session S-12 8/5 for 3 years and did not feel "at home" with out the "D" string in the 9 slot. I sold that guitar and got an S-10 3/5 Fessy. I like that guitar, but missed the low notes, so my new Sierra is finally going to be exactly what I want and need for my style of playing.
If Lloyd Green can get all that wonderful music out of his E9th set-up that you would have to put on the "minimal" end of the set-up scale as things go today, I feel that what I'm having built will be complete for me and I can spend my time playing it and not tweeking it's underside.
JE:-)> |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 16 May 2003 11:21 am
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| Quote: |
| Jim did the dealers make more money per. guitar than Dekley? |
Yep, they sure did!  It really hurt to see a dealer order a guitar that he had already sold. We barely made $100 yet the dealer could sell it for $1500 and still make $500 just for picking up the phone to order it. 
That's why many builders back then sold "out of their back door", they made a lot more money that way. It's also the reason why very few builders sell through dealers today. No one can afford to stay in business without making a decent profit. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 16 May 2003 11:23 am
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HEY TONY, you sound like a Yankee salesman!
Anybody wanna buy a Yankee?  |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 16 May 2003 11:25 am
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Sounds great, Jim!
You've done your homework.
Enjoy that new axe!
~pb
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 16 May 2003 11:58 am
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Well Stephen, for a Yankee..I acquired all of my sales / business knowledge here in the South working for a Northern Company !
Go figure..
Please don't tell anyone..
I'd hate for it to get out on the Internet..
tp
ps : Don't forget Doug is coming in August...
Hot month, Hot player, can't find a nicer guy..
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Louie Hallford
From:
denison tx
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Posted 16 May 2003 11:02 pm
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Not being a builder,I sure would not know the answer,but it makes sense to me that if a builders standard single twelve came with seven pedals,a variation from that might result in having to have a pedal bar special made with only five pedals which might result in some cost differential. Just a thought.
Now I wonder if a builder builds the pedal bars in house or does he contract them out. Is contrator or other set-up cost a possible factor?
I have a friend who wanted only four knee levers on a D10. The manufacturer apparently built five lever guitars but charged extra for the fifth lever. Apparently the guitar being discussed had already been built as when my friend received his new guitar,the fifth lever was on it but was free wheeling in the breeze as it had no rods or other conections to it. As you might expect,there were other problems- results a lifetime, unhappy customer.
He asked me to come help him tune it,I confess I never could get it even close to tuned or even tunable. |
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