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Author Topic:  New Yorkers, you're o.k.?
anewcomb

 

From:
Astoria NY
Post  Posted 13 Sep 2001 9:02 am    
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I live in New York (underneath the Queens side of Triboro Bridge) and, like others, waited to find out whether many of my friends had been left alive by this, and they are all ok which I hadn't dared hope for. They're all ok.

I never felt like a target this way before and am enraged.

My wife and I woke up and went outside at 2am last night. The air was full of the smell of burning plastic. It wasn't coming from nearby, the wind had changed, we were getting smoke from the twin towers.

Got up this morning and the car parked in front of mine had a bumper sticker: "Islam: religion of peace and prosperity". You could look at that and get more enraged, and I did, but also you could think about it for second and figure that the guy wants it to be true whether or not it is true right now.

Certainly there's been no dancing in the streets of Queens by Arabs. I think they've had the same worries as everyone else.

BobG, since as a rumor it's a bit inflammatory, could you possibly find out more about what was actually seen in Patterson, also when?

Andy
(carter starter)

[This message was edited by anewcomb on 13 September 2001 at 10:21 AM.]

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Michael Johnstone


From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
Post  Posted 13 Sep 2001 9:49 am    
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I don't think we need to worry about whether or not this was a home grown plot like the Oklahoma bombing.This thing was way beyond rednecks with poop bombs in U-Haul trucks.
No,I think we can comfortably assume that this was the work of Muslim fanatics.
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Jeremy Steele


From:
Princeton, NJ USA
Post  Posted 13 Sep 2001 9:56 am    
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My office building was just evacuated, since it's next to Grand Central Terminal and someone called in a bomb threat...turned out to be a hoax, and we're back at our desks now...this sort of thing is going to happen frequently, I'm afraid.
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Bobby Lee


From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
Post  Posted 13 Sep 2001 10:35 am    
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Quote:
I think we can comfortably assume that this was the work of Muslim fanatics.
I'm not "comfortable" with any assumptions when lives are at stake. We have been led to that assumption by the media. We need to be sure before we take action, though.
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André Sommer

 

Post  Posted 13 Sep 2001 11:13 am    
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I was watching CNN as they broke the news and I'm still deeply shocked by what I saw. There's no justification for these horrific acts of terrorism or any premeditated crime for that matter. My thoughts are with all the victims of this mass murder of innocent and defenseless people and my heart goes out to all who've lost their loved ones.

I do hope that this tragedy will not lead to some sort of 'witch' hunt on other innocent people. I've seen some really disturbing,
ludicrous generalizations and name calling on the Internet already.

I honestly think we have an obligation to teach and show all children (and adults) on this planet
that all forms of life are connected through the same magic. Ignoring Universal Principles, lack of unconditional love and respect, unawareness are at the root of most suffering. The concept of "us" and "they" taking to extremes is, in a deeper sense, a delusion that could create disturbed
minds and even such criminal behavior like we have just experienced and witnessed again.

IMHO, extreme patriotism, fundamentalism, dogmatic beliefs or religions of any kind,
racism, feelings of superiority etc are products of mind conditioning and doctrines that could (and often did) lead to intolerance, disrespect and violence.

Unfortunately, many people live their life
thinking that they have no more receptors than five senses.
Once the observer gives up identifying with
what's being observed this world might become a more peaceful place to
live in for all. YMMV, though.

Andre.
( Inhabitant of planet Earth, somewhere in the Universe)

P.S. In the spirit of this forum I would like to remember the lyrics of this song by Sting:

If blood will flow when flesh and steel are one
Drying in the colour of the evening sun
Tomorrow's rain will wash the stains away
But something in our minds will always stay

Perhaps this final act was meant
To clinch a lifetime's argument
That nothing comes from violence
and nothing ever could
For all those born beneath an angry star
Lest we forget how fragile we are

On and on the rain will fall
Like tears from a star
Like tears from a star
On and on the rain will say
How fragile we are
How fragile we are
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John De Maille


From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
Post  Posted 17 Sep 2001 1:40 pm    
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I am sadly appalled and disgusted by what happened to all the innocent people on 9-11-01. I was safe, but my wife was due to fly in from Milwaukee,on that Tues. morning. She finally drove all the way home and was safe.
As an out to pasture Army Ranger 75th Reg., I need to say that, we here in the U.S.A. need to stop forgetting to keep our guard up. NOBODY should be able to get on any form of public transportation, and create such a catastrophe.We as a nation, have become extremely lax in our self-protection. We need to have a re-check of our safeguards.Then,maybe,we all can proceed with our wonderful American lives. To live free, and be free, from the sadistic maniacs and fanatics. I greive deeply for all the victims, who, have lost their loved ones.
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Gene Jones

 

From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
Post  Posted 17 Sep 2001 4:42 pm    
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Michael...I hope your condescending remark quoted below was not intentionally offensive:

"......This thing was way beyond rednecks with poop bombs in U-Haul trucks..........."

Prior to your cavalier dismissal of the Oklahoma City bombing, maybe you should have
been shown the photographs of the 168 men, women and pre-school children who were buried underneath the Murrah Building and the weeks spent attempting to identify the body parts resulting from that "poop bomb".

Even if the circumstances were reversed and it had been a "redneck" flying the plane and a "muslim" driving the U-Haul, in the United States of America we need to identify the guilty before we start killing people!

Fred G. Jones/Ret Oklahoma City Firefighter

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 18 September 2001 at 07:11 AM.]

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HOWaiian

 

Post  Posted 17 Sep 2001 8:30 pm    
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Andre, that was a beautiful, humane, compassionate post. If more people shared your attitude, this world would indeed be a better place.

tears are welling up (again) as I think of the thousands of innocent lives lost, their families & friends; the bravery of the fire & police departments in the face of devastating slaughter, especially fire commissioner Von Essen, whose 300+ men lost included the ENTIRETY of the upper echelon of the fire dept. it was the sight of him trying to keep his composure at a late-night press conference on the day of the attack that caused me to lose mine.

Mayor Giuliani's actions & words thruout this tragedy have been exemplary; I couldn't stand the man before this terrible crime ocurred, but his performance has been simply stunning: matter-of-fact, realistic, strength-affirming; he has been a calming force for the city for these terrible last few days, and I can honestly now say that he would get my vote were he to run for mayor again.

I work nights in Manhattan and live in Brooklyn; on 9/11, I awoke at 11:30AM, well after the 2d tower went down, and checked my voicemail for any calls I might have missed while sleeping. there was a message from my wife, who works in Rockefeller Ctr: "...they blew up the WTC, it's gone...turn on the news." I thought she was joking, but I could hear the seriousness in her voice. I turned the news on and sure enough….I looked out my window to see all of the cars on the block covered in ash, and the smell of burning rubber & plastic wafting thru the air. my wife (a devout Bhuddist) made it home safely & in record time; I've heard real nightmare stories about others trying to get out of the city.

[quote]
"….IMHO, extreme patriotism, fundamentalism, dogmatic beliefs or religions of any kind,
racism, feelings of superiority etc are products of mind conditioning and doctrines that could (and often did) lead to intolerance, disrespect and violence."

Andre, I couldn't agree with you more. At the risk of being hounded off of the forum by true-believers (to whom I mean no disrespect), I must say that I am proudly atheist. This terrible tragedy (and the recent, asinine words of Jerry Falwell & Pat Robertson) simply reaffirms my atheism; at the same time it reaffirms my faith in humanity, as I have never in my short life seen something as beautiful as the whole city of New York (NEW YORK, mind you!) come together by the thousands to help one another thru an unprecedented crisis.

my heart goes out to those in the Islamic-American community who do not share the beliefs of the rabid, deranged perpetrators of this abomination. unfortunately, I know that many of them will suffer at the hands of knee-jerk jackasses who would blame an entire people based on the actions of some.

b0b, I know all of this should be posted off-topic, but I had to get it off of my chest.


Peace & strength to all,

how

[This message was edited by HOWaiian on 17 September 2001 at 09:35 PM.]


André Sommer

 

Post  Posted 18 Sep 2001 6:54 pm    
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I apologize beforehand to the moderators and forumites for this lengthy
post. It is not meant to preach or claiming to be an instant
solution to all problems with overnight results. I can only invite you
to read and use it for reflection. Besides the handicap of English not
being my native tongue, what I really want to convey can't be said with
words anyway. I usually let my steel do the talking.

Aloha HOWaiian,

I am very happy that you and your wife are safe.
Thank you for sharing your view and insight. I'm pleased to see
one response to my post saying that you can relate to it. On another forum
it triggered this reaction:

> It is the kind of "thinking" that you are displaying here that is the
main reason that there are thousands of dead people in New York.<
Then he went on with "eliminating the terrorists and their support mechanisms"
etc believing that this would take care of the problem.

He also changed my subject header from "Just a thought ?" in "Clear
Thinking Required".
I responded with:

"What is your definition of "Clear" and who do you think requires it? I
believe e.g. Hitler and his henchmen (not comparing you to them in any
way) thought of themselves as 'clear thinkers' when they committed their
crimes against humanity. The way we see things depend on the way we
think. It is this 'thinking' out of intellect(reasoning and
rationalizing), not intelligence, that get's us in trouble all the
time."

I would like to add some things for those who maybe didn't understand me.
I understand the outrage over this horrific mass murder very well and
I'm still deeply shocked and fighting my tears. But I'm also shaken by
those voices that call for revenge without even considering the
underlying causes of hatred. It seems that there are people that think
you can remove a tumor with a riotgun or perform brain surgery with a
chainsaw. We do need to find better ways to protect ourselves from
violence committed out of ignorance, bigotry and hate.

I believe that if we are going to retaliate out of revenge now ( and in
the process possibly kill
other innocent people) we will only trigger more of the same that
perpetuates the loop of violence. That doesn't mean we need to turn the
other cheek, though. These criminals should
be caught and isolated so they can't hurt others anymore.
Action out of self-protection *should* be taken,
but it shouldn't be limited to fighting the symptoms only. Safety should of
course be a first priority and If someone attacks you directly you have
the right to protect yourself by neutralizing the immediate thread if
you can. If someone next to you is targeted you have the obligation to
help this person to avoid bodily harm. I see less of that happening on
the streets these days...If someone on the other side of the world is
getting harmed or killed than that affects you too, believe it or
not.The recent attack on defenseless people (from many different
countries, including the one I live in) *is* an attack on all of us and
humanity. Every criminal, be it thieves, burglars, rapists, murderers,
etc are committing acts of terror against humanity and society, which
they are a part of. We need to take a critical look why we make movies
that are full of violence. We need to take a good look what causes
school kids to shoot and kill their classroom mates. Another act of terror.

We can hold people responsible for their actions but it is very
difficult to blame the mindset of those that don't 'know' better?
Should we blame a tree because it's not a rose? Calling people "evil",
could assume that they *really* comprehend the difference between
right and wrong. One acts according to his/her present level of awareness
and state of consciousness. Forgiving without taking precautions so
these things will not happen again isn't enough. Real
forgiveness is one of the hardest things to do
but it is something like the scent that a violet leaves behind on the
heel that crushed it.

I'm talking about a holistic approach to our problems hoping that it
could provide a longer
lasting solution to piece and mutual understanding. The Universe is an
indivisible whole rather than the sum of it's parts. According to
quantum mechanics the behaving by parts are determined by the whole.
Parts and the whole are co-relative concepts. A part is a part only
because it's a part of the whole and the observer *is* part of the
observation but shouldn't identify with it. The way we look at a test
for example influences the outcome of it. Bhuddism has very interesting
views on that and quantumfysics found many parallels to those views.
Although I do believe in what I refer to as The Source, I personally
don't care much for 'organized religion' because it all too often turns
into a regime of oppression, control, power and punishment.

Everyone creates their own limited and relative reality by their own
conditioning, habits and prejudice like it is the absolute truth. It
makes up their worldview but they don't like their worldview questioned
because they are comfortable with that view. This world is becoming more
and more focused on analyzing, which tends to lead to fragmentation.
It's this fragmented, incoherent, and narrow-minded view that prevents
us from seeing the whole which interacts with it's parts and vice versa.
You can analyze a tear under a microscope but you can't tell where it
came from.

Wasn't it also out of political and economical interest that people and
countries turned a hypocritical blind eye on atrocities committed elsewhere
in the world. Maybe to protect and maintain their own material standard of
living ? We need to re-evaluate what motivates our foreign policies.
Sometimes there is a fine line between agreeing and disagreeing.

Eliminating terrorists isn't sufficient. They'll become martyrs and
others more than willingly will fill their shoes. Killing human beings
doesn't kill the source of evil behavior. One of the things that really
needs to be "eliminated" is ego. Living in ego is living in fear of
'getting caught' and being exposed. Where there's ego, there can't be
Love. We should be trying to find ways to raise the level of
consciousness and start real dialogs. Instead of telling eachother
*what* to think we could try to discover *how* to think together.
There are indeed more options than to kill. I wish those terrorist would
have realized that. The unspeakably tragedy that just happened *is*
getting the attention of the world. Once we can deal with the losses and
the grief that it has caused (and is still causing) maybe the world can
rise from the ashes and this could bring us closer together instead of
further apart. However strange this may sound to some people.

There are countless things we can do in our own lives that will directly
affect you, and others next to you, with very positive results, albeit
not always instantaneously visible. We *can* make a difference. I just
now saw a few posts on another forum where people with some very strong
racist and prejudice remarks apologized for their behavior. It is a
wonderful thing to see so
many people all over the world show sympathy and helping others in need
after this dramatic event.The potential of compassion
with other souls, even people we've never met before, is available but
why does it seem to surface (more) when disasters strikes? Maybe it's a
'natural' thing for humans to find a balance for the grief we
experience.

We are now spending one trillion dollars a year on weapons. These terrorists
might eventually gain access to those weapons too, possible also ones of mass
destruction.
We *are* the world and, unfortunately, it is a world of hurt. Not even
the violent deaths of millions of people did really wake up mankind and
lifted it to higher levels of consciousness and awareness.
They did die in vain if we don't wake up.
Instead of trying to cover the world with leather, put on a pair of
shoes.
Not aimed at anyone in particular but to all, including myself : If you
want to save the world, take a long and sincere look at yourself and
your convictions and see if the world maybe needs to be saved from you.

Take care and warmest regards,

Andre.
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CrowBear Schmitt


From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
Post  Posted 19 Sep 2001 4:55 am    
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i was brought up in the Apple too !
(Washington Heights/the Cloisters)
the Village (East+West), Soho were neighborhoods i knew well.
i got a friend who lives close to the Twins. i don't know where he is.
i was stunned by this terror.
i am not yet in Peace w: myself cause i have'nt found all the right questions and the right answers.
i'll go along w: André cause i partake in his way of thinkin'
Europe + Israel have been dealin' w: terrorist actions since the Munich Olympic games.
the USA has perhaps considered itself exempt of extremists terror in the past.
Now is the time for us to hold on to each other and ask ourselves why these atrocious events take place.
We are All, Americans, Tibetans, Algerians, Bosniacs, Afghanis, Israelis, Palestinians,
Burmese, Chinese, and so many more...
Steel askin' for Mercy ...




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Dennis Detweiler


From:
Solon, Iowa, US
Post  Posted 19 Sep 2001 8:24 pm    
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Good God!!! I'm having flashbacks to the 60s!!
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André Sommer

 

Post  Posted 20 Sep 2001 5:33 am    
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Dennis Detweiler said:
"Good God!!! I'm having flashbacks to the 60s!! "

And your point is ? I don't know to whom your remark was directed or what you're trying to make clear but if it was a comment on my or CrowBar's posts and you think that's outdated you should take a look at the Off Topic site that bOb suggested to us.Specifically this one http://pub26.ezboard.com/fofftopic44665frm1.showMessage?topicID=859.topic

It is this KKK BS that gave *me* a flashback to the Nazi propaganda that eventually lead to the deaths of millions of innocent people
What I've said in my posts has been said way before the 60's. Unfortunally it still falls on many deaf ears today.

Best regards,

Andre.

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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 20 Sep 2001 8:01 am    
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This is not the place for political debate. I'm closing this topic.

------------------

-b0b-   quasar@b0b.com
-System Administrator
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