Playing For The Song

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Interesting comments, so....what is the final answer?

Should we play simple melody on everything?(play beneath our ability)

Should we play "chew your tongue 'til it bleeds" rides on everything?(Play everything we can do)

Or, should we just trust our own judgement, and interpret each song as it comes according to our own ability and experience, and hope we are right?

Gene

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

It's a trick question, right Gene?

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

"There are three ways to play a musical instrument. And they are in this order:

1. Melody.

2. Melody.

3. Melody."

Now before you get your trusty flame throwers pointed, let me tell you that carl did NOT say that. It was said years ago by Jerry Byrd. Later it was quoted by Lloyd Green in an article in a Peavy magazine. And always, epitomized by JB, LG and the Big "what's his name". (Along with a few others. NOT nearly enough though, IMHO)

carl

Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

...I never heard Buddy Rich or Gene Krupka say that...nor the bass player, nor the rythym guitarist....nor the timpani player, the bassoonist, the viola-ist...

[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 12 August 2001 at 07:39 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I'm probably guilty of overplaying from time to time, but I believe that laying out for a verse and listening to what the guitar player (or fiddle or keyboards) is playing is very effective. A good pair of ears is as important as hands on the bandstand. As someone mentioned earlier, play steel shows or other venues that showcase the pedal steel if you want the limelight.

No matter how we might wish it were so, very few audience members are really interested in an evening of steel guitar pyrotechnics. It's true that some may enjoy a rousing instrumental from time to time and may even applaud your solos, but they're there FOR THE SONGS. As soon as some egotistical instrumentalist starts stepping on the lyrics, the audience will react negatively.

It's funny. Most members of the audience will not even notice if you make even a blatant mistake, but if you play so loud or so busy that the integrity of the song is violated they won't like it.

Just my opinion.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Jerry Horner · From: Tahlequah, OK, USA

Guys, isn't this forum great. I enjoy reading each and everyone of your opinions and it would thrill me no end to get to meet each and everyone of you someday.

Jerry

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Thanks for saying that, Jerry, but I fear you'd be disappointed. We really "come alive" online. In person, most of us are a buncha deadbeats.

Kevin Walker · From: Roanoke,VA. UNITED STATES

Mike,
In the late '80's, I had barely sat down at a steel guitar. I've never met you, don't know you, except by name, and I've only heard you play one time; that being a session tape from here locally. Sorry to offend anyone! You and any other player who has and is playing pro., certainly DESERVE MY RESPECT. As for my chops, I don't play any/or very little C6th, and get around half-descent on E9th, most of the time; which I guess would tell you I'd get buried in the scheme of things right quick. As for the cheese comment, I was only trying to STIR SOME ****, and I guess I succeeded.

Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

..Jim, you cut me to the quick..have I been laboring under the misconception that I was just as charming and witty in person as I am online?...or are you telling me that I am just as charming and witty in person as I am online?

...

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Well Jerry.....you really opened "Pandoras Box". Good discussion topic, bring on another one!

Gene

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

...negatory, but the melody is played by the kazooist...

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Pat, you read my mind.

Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

...Jim, that's because our minds are similarly warped...the last time I saw all the instruments playing nothing but the melody was at a 1st grade flut-o-fone concert...

[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 12 August 2001 at 05:14 PM.]

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

"play pretty for the people" ...al

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

The top players on today's CD releases must hold themselves WAY back to fit well into the song, as I see it. This is not to say that they're not putting in 100%, but their controlled and reserved playing purrs like a '57 Vette rumbling down a residential street at 25 MPH when you know full well they're capable of 150 MPH on the straightaway.

Oddly enough, I think this holds out hope for neophytes like me. I simply can't play the fast licks or complex changes of a veteran player, but maybe I could handle the tempered subtleties of laying in supporting licks and chords behind the singer in a performing situation.

Maybe someday I'll find out.

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Bill (steel player impersonator) | MSA Classic U12 | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?

[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 12 August 2001 at 07:42 PM.]

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Carl, I've always loved your posts, and have so much respect for you, I know you won't be mad at me when I say;
There are 3 ways to describe a musician who never plays anything but the melody;
1. Boring
2. Boring, and
3. Boring.

As far as using the melody as a basis, a springboard for melodic interpretation, that's a different thing. Lloyd comes to mind as being particularly ingenious at that.
I know you and I share great enthusiasm for Buddy Emmons' playing. Don't you think it's fair to say that many of Buddy's solos, particularly in the swing/jazz idiom, have Zero to do with the melody, and everything to do with the changes ?
This is, of course, all a matter of subjective taste... and my humble subjective opinion only

For me, I already know the melody... and after it's been stated, I'd like to hear something else.
-John

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Oh, John, you wild-man, you.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Well first of all John, I was NOT the one who said it. Secondly, I do agree with it however.

I respect you very much to John, but I have NEVER found Jerry Byrd, Lloyd Green or Buddy Emmons to be boring. And they all play melody.

Over these 60 yrs, it has been my experience that the greatest players of anything play melody. IN fact it has been said more than a few times (and I agree) that playing melody is actually harder than ad-libbing. Takes more than a little work in a lot of cases to learn the melody. Much easier to just play notes that fit the chord structure.

EVEN Buddy, when he plays Jazz, one can STILL hear the melody line. He is one of the few steel players on this earth than can do that. But he can do it as sure as I am standing on this earth. It is one of his identifying characteristics of what makes him truly the greatest. He is melodioulsy perfect IMHO.

Carl

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Uh oh . . .
Now we gotta define MELODY
I don't think anyone suggested that the steel solo should regurgitate the melody of the song (I HOPE not, and agree with John -- that would be very boring). However, playing a loose interpretation of the melody -- playing OVER THE CHANGES in such a way that's reminiscent of the melody -- is an art unto itself. How the melody is harmonized, phrased, and modified is up to the discretion of the player (it is HIS/HER solo after all). Different listeners are delighted (or repulsed

) by different styles.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Jack Francis · From: Queen Creek, Arizona, USA

I hesitate to say anything, as b0b can attest I'm not in the same league as the rest of you. This has been an interesting read, hear goes,,,,,
Years ago, a bass player I worked with in Reno told me that a good friend of his was a great steel player that had become a "jazz guitarist" on the steel.
He said that he liked working with me because I didn't know anything. DAMN I HAVE ARRIVED!
Jack Francis
Rustler S-10, Peavey Nashville 400

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Carl, I concur completely.

This debating... it's a very healthy thing, huh ?

-John

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Larry Bells post seems to agree with Merl Lindsays philosphy of 30 years ago:

......."(2)If you can't force yourself to play the melody, play something close to it. Keep it simple enough that the people who paid to get in here can understand it".....

Paul Crawford · From: Orlando, Fl

Well, I haven't gotten flamed in at least a couple weeks, so it's about time.

So far in my brief career, I've been tossed out on my ear on 3 occassions, 1 band, 1 audition, and 1 session. In each case, I was following the advice given in this thread and by my teacher, to play within myself, lay out when I couldn't contribute, to play a tasteful interpretation of the melody. In each case, it was my presumption of knowing what "it's suppose to sound like" instead of picking up that the leader/producer really didn't give a damn about what anybody else thought. They wanted me to PLAY! Play fast, play loud, play all of the time. 'You're here to take over when the lead guitar player gets tired. He overplays, you better too! If he's playing notes, you play chords. If he's playing chords, you play notes. You're being paid to play, not sit on your hands.'

Is this the way I want to play? Of course not. The audition I was pretty happy to hike out of since it was clear that we were incompatible. But in the other two cases, I feel like it was my only two "failures." Why? Because I hired myself out to play. I was suppose to go to work, not to fun. If I wasn't willing to play what ever was asked of me, I shouldn't have hung out the shingle. You are a member of a "band", and that band has a leader/producer. The sound is in HIS head and you are hired to make that sound as best you can. You don't have to take the gig, you don't have to come back. But once you are there, it's your job to do the best you can to produce the product being requested. If you are only willing to follow your own tastes and style, then be the leader of you own band.

I'm sure when you've become well known and have been recognised for your own style, then you have to produce that style. Again, that's why they called you. But for the working grunt hiring out as a general sideman, do your best to produce what the guy who hired you wants to hear and save your comments on his tastes for later over a beer.

Bill Fall · From: Richmond, NH, USA

For what one man's opinion may be worth . . .

It'd be hard to disagree with most of the above postings, even when some seem to conflict.

Virtually all will agree that tasteful simplicity, generally speaking, is ideal in backup. The best example would be Chet Atkins; listen to his work behind Jim Reeves, Eddy Arnold, the Everly Brothers, Suzy Bogguss and so many others -- sheer but ingenious simplicity, and exquisitely tasteful. By a similar token, Ernest Tubb kept a tight rein on sidemen backing him up: The steel was restricted to double-stops -- not even triads allowed -- and the lead guitar to single-note voicings of the melody line (or something very close to it). And I never heard ET's sound criticized. (His singing sometimes, but not his sound.)

Obviously, there are exceptions to the premise: A Billy Byrd-esque lead break on, say, "Rocky Top," for example, would be as flat as yesterday's beer.

I, for one, agree that especially back in the early to mid '60s -- notwithstanding the Days, the Emmonses, etc. -- there were a number of other steelers who overplayed on recordings. But arranging and the industry itself have vastly matured since those times, and the tasteful stylisms of the Days, the Emmonses, the Ruggses, the Greens, the Hugheys, the Myricks, et al., prevailed as exemplary standards to be strived after. So that I'd say steel breaks I hear on popular recordings today are, by and large, superbly suited to the songs -- even if some of us steel pickers might hanker to hear more of them.

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