Your Comments About Digital Home Recording?

Al Gershen · From: Grants Pass, OR, USA * R.I.P.

Hi Group:

I'm considering purchasing a Fostex FD-4 digital, four-track recorder and I'm wondering if any of the SGF members have any experiences with devices of this type.

These recorders sell for about $400 online at the Musician Friends website. They are also being sold daily on eBay.

I look forward to reading your comments.

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Regards,
Al Gershen
Grants Pass, Oregon. USA
Fender 1000 and Fender PS 210

[This message was edited by Al Gershen on 06 February 2000 at 08:57 PM.]

Martin Abend · From: Berlin, Germany

Hi Al,

until recently I had a Roland VS-880 8-track Harddisk-recorder. It sounded fantastic to my ears, but it was far too camplicated for me, so I sold it. I don't know about your Fostex, but I recommend a HD-recorder with an analogue mixer section. If you don't have experience with that digital stuff this would make you live much more easier and you get your results faster.

Good luck with whatever you buy,

Martin

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S-10 Sierra Crown gearless

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I'd suggest getting at least 8 tracks. Four just isn't enough (sometimes 8 isn't enough but you have a lot more options with Cool

.

I've got a 4 track Tascam (tape type) and if you wanted to have a bass track, drum track, rhythm track, lead guitar track and steel track - there isn't enough. Actually the drums should be on several tracks and then if you want a vocal track, etc., etc.

With a 4 track, you can mix tracks and copy them to a different track to make an open track for something else, but the big problem with that is once you mix down you can't go back and change something.

RickRichtmyer · From: Beautiful Adamstown, MD

I have had a Roland VS-880 for about two years and I love it! I agree with Jack that you'll get frustrated with only four tracks. And as he says, sometimes (often) even 8 tracks are a little tight. One good thing about the Roland is that even though you can only play back 8 tracks at once, you can store up to 64 tracks (the new VS-880 stores 128) without writing over one. That allows you to save all of your original tracks instead of writing over the originals when you do submixes. This is a great advantage because you can remix from the originals if you don't like the submix farther on down the line.

Roland also makes a 16 track machine, the VS-1680, but with the advent of a 24 track Mackie machine, I'm going to bypass the 16 and go straight to the Mackie (someday).

And Martin is right about complexity because Roland manuals are famous for their poor quality. But, there are online support groups at VSPlanet and Virtual Studio. Also, there is an excellent Video owners manual that is a big help when trying to figure out how to operate the recorder.

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Rick Richtmyer
users.erols.com/rickrichtmyer

[This message was edited by RickRichtmyer on 07 February 2000 at 05:37 AM.]

Martin Abend · From: Berlin, Germany

Man,
I should have known that before I sold it.

The "manual" really was a mere joke!

Martin

[This message was edited by Martin Abend on 07 February 2000 at 04:35 AM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I recently bought a Yamaha MD8 and it is really fun. Really user friendly. I got it for $1099 including 2 minidisks at Showcase Music in Portland.

RickRichtmyer · From: Beautiful Adamstown, MD

The one complaint that I've heard about minidisc based systems is that apparently there is some degradation due to the data compression scheme that they use when writing to the minidisc. The Roland units have at least three modes of data storage, including one in which there is no data compression.

For what it's worth, running in that mode cuts the Roland's capacity to six tracks. Most people have found that the mode that offers minimal data compression is indistinguishable from the no compression mode.

Also, the Roland units use laptop type EIDE hard drives which are available up to at least 8GB (partitioned in 4 2GB partitions).

The one exeption to that is the VS-840 which uses a 250MB (removable) ZIP drive.
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Rick Richtmyer
users.erols.com/rickrichtmyer

[This message was edited by RickRichtmyer on 07 February 2000 at 08:46 AM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I'm not buying the compression line. Listened to 'em side by side (roland, tascam, yamaha, sony, and fostex,)... no difference whatsoever. They all sounded great. After doing the comparisons with respect to my needs I chose the MD8 because it was stand alone and the easiest to use. If your focus is on playing steel I would reccomend getting a user friendly recorder. If you are taking up recording as a new hobby then you might want something more. If you like bells and whistles you probably want a Roland. If you are going to use your computer to record on you have alot of other options. Some brands have built in effects and all kinds of neat stuff.
Have Fun!

RickRichtmyer · From: Beautiful Adamstown, MD

I'm not knocking the MD8, Pete. The truth of the matter is that I've never heard one, so I'm going on hearsay. Admittedly that's a pretty dangerous way to go. :O

The VS-880 really is pretty easy to use, if you get the video manual rather than relying on the written one. I did a whole CD on mine where I played all the instruments and I did all the engineering myself. The VS-880 has loop and auto-punch capabilities that make it a snap to be a musician/engineer. And it really has a pretty decent built-in effects card (it's an extra cost option though). And the really great thing is that (if you get the optional CD burner) you can burn your own CDs write from the VS-880/1680 itself. The VS-840 does not have the CD capability. If you get the CD burner option, it's a snap (and not too expensive) to do frequent backups of your work on to inexpensive CD-Rs or reusable CD-RWs.

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Rick Richtmyer
users.erols.com/rickrichtmyer

Dan Dowd · From: Paducah, KY, R.I.P.

I had a Tascam 4 track tape deck(still have it) but purchased a Yamaha MD8 mini disk 8 track recorder. This thing works great and has a short learning curve. I sync it in with cakewakk and do not record these tracks on the MD8. This has several advantages, the first being is that you dont loose 2 tracks, 2nd if you find that you dont like a part or need to adjust the volume of a part, you can do that. When you are happy with everything you can record it to sound forge or other similar program and then burn it to a CD or tape. If the 4 track you are considering buying has this midi- in-out sync feature you might get by with 4 tracks. But if you get hooked like I did on the recording stuff you will wish you got a 8 track the first time. Look at it like this, you will probably have you recorder for many years so pro rate the extra cost of the 8 vs the 4 over the 5-8 year period and you are looking at a few $ per year. Thats how I justify the cost of my toys to my wife. She believes me, I think.

[This message was edited by Dan Dowd on 07 February 2000 at 10:52 AM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hey Rick,
I was thinking about it and one thing I noted is that the mini disk players I saw had anolog mixers (something I felt right at home with), whearas the Roland, for example, is all digital(menu driven). Maybe that analog vs. digital is what is being labled as "some degradation in sound...". I don't believe that the storage method of 1's and 0's has anything to do with it, though.
I know you're not knocking the MD8, Rick. This is a good topic for us all to compare notes on. There are alot of ways to skin the Digital Home Studio cat, huh?!

Mike Dennis · From: Stevens Point WI.

The VS1680 is also an easy machine to use... it is set up very nice...

The new quick start video helps you to get started and there is also a quick start manual along with the regular owners manual.

Once you learn where the different pages are and how input and track are used to record and monitor a performance... things begin to fall into place. I found getting in to tweak the controls is a lot easier than I thought it would be.

The features on these recorders are absolutely great... the effects algorithms are top notch... including some professional mastering tools. One nice feature.... you can work on a mix and if your ears become fatigued, just save your work... then come back in a couple of hours and pick up right where you left off.

I'm real happy with mine.

Gordy Rex · From: Southport, NC

I also have the Yamaha MD8 and cannot say enough good things about it. Not only 8 tracks but it syncs to my computer via midi
solid. I use Cakewalk software and that gives
me 16 tracks audio plus 250 midi tracks. This combination gives me plenty of space to work. And Midi files are out there by the hundreds. Also the MD8 is so user friendly I love it. One button auto punch record, Ok two, stop and start. up to 99 takes on the same lick, it is CD Quality and there is no way I can tell the difference between the original cd cut and the copy I made on the MINI DISK. The sound compression format is pretty much fixed. Some of the articals that you may be refering to about degraded sound was from early formats. Also the MD8 is great for live recording off your mixer. Either 2 track 4 track or 8 track. And it will use both MINI DISK styles. Standard for
2 track, or the MDD 140 for 4 and 8 track.
You would not be sorry with this unit. Oh yea,one more thing it has phantom power for
studio mikes, I like the Audio Tech 4033.

Joe E · From: Houston Texas

As a studio owner and musician I would suggest staying away from the minidisk and the less expensive recorders. The VS1680 hard disk recorders seem ok. THe resasom I suggest staying away from the less expensive units is the A/D converters are not very good. This is really where the quality of sound starts.

A friend of mine owns a Yamaha minidisk recorder and ended up spending another $1000 for a/d converters to make it sound good.

These units are great for pre-production and song arangment And are certainly better than nothing.

My suggestion: We all know the great auction sites. You can buy an ADAT for 600-800 and be much better off. Oh yea its modular. Need more tracks, buy another unit and not have to sell your old one.

Also because of the recent update to 20 bit adats, there are plenty of original and ADAT XT with little hours on them. BTW.. the original ADATs have produced hundreds of gold and platnum records.

Please don't take this wrong, but why buy a "toy" when you can buy the real McCoy for less.

The Rolands seem to be decent too...

Just a thought!

Joe

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Our latest CD, b0b and Roy's Diatonic Adventures, was recorded on Roland gear. I used a VS-880 and Roy used a VS-840. These things are just great for home recording. My only complaint is the display panel - too small!

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Bobby Lee

www.b0b.com/products
Sierra Session S-12 E9th, Speedy West D-10, Sierra S-8 Lap

RickRichtmyer · From: Beautiful Adamstown, MD

Pete, No it wasn't the analog mixer on the MD8 to which I was referring. I didn't even know that it had an analog mixer. But that does bring to light another significant factor in holding out for the VS-840/880/1680 or similar machine. As someone noted above, you can save your mixdown events (volume changes, pan, eq, effects, etc.). It's really great to be able to do a mix, then run it off to a cassette, or even a CD, and then take it around to play in different environments and be able to go back and just tweak the original mix to fix the deficiencies. Once you've experienced auto-mix you'll never want to go back.

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Rick Richtmyer
users.erols.com/rickrichtmyer

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Like I said, I checked out all the 8 tracks and made the decision that was right for me. I wanted an all in one unit with no learning curve where all I need to do is hit record. The mini disks work flawlessly and the recordings sound great.
My goal is to play as much steel as possible and record some stuff for fun. I have no intention of becoming a recording guru. The tweaking and re-tweaking thing just ain't my bag. Just don't have the time to dedicate to it. If I want something mastered I can drop off the disk at a local studio where they do that stuff day in and day out. I'll probably pick up a CD burner soon and my home recording studio is a done deal.
You can take it as far as you want with modular components and accessories. I'm a happy camper with the MD8. It's sound quality and ease of use are a perfect match for my PSG obsession!

Robert Parent · From: Gillette, WY

I bought a Roland VS1680 about a year ago and it just blows away everything else I have used, even equipment at many times it cost. The original manuals stink, but a rewrite is available which makes the whole process fairly straight forward.

I have messed with home recording equipment for over 25 years and this one is a 'killer' IMHO. BTW, anybody interested in a room full of slightly used recording gear?

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

Hey Pete.... A quick comment on the analog/digital mixer and file compression/non-compression issue. If compression is used, it is done in the digital domain; the resulting digital audio files take up less hard disk space. The compression does degrade the sound slightly, but that's only noticible with certain kinds of sounds and also depends on the listener. The compression scheme I believe they use (I know its the standard for conventional MDs) is called ATRAC and is much better than what people use nowadays to compress full sized CD songs (usually around 50MB each) into MP3 files (typically 3-4MB each). The analog versus digital mixer is another discussion....

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i just finished up 7 original songs on my old vs840...and even with my mickey mouse approach to technical sophistication and burning a cd with no prep for it, i was quite pleased with the results...especially compared to my pre-digital attempts. you can get these decks for $500-$700 now, i think. the 840 is slightly limited with 6 tracks but built in effects and small self contained unit is cool. (rick r. ... i'm getting closer to sounds on the site..i'll let you know, thanx)

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I was thinking about this thread and thought I should mention that with respect to home recording studios, I am probably the least knowlegable poster here. I sold a steel I had (for $1000) and headed to the local music shops to check out the recorders and came home with the MD8 (for the reasons I've stated earlier). I'm quite happy with that purchase as it only effectively cost me $99 (I like the way my mind rationalizes musical purchases

) But these other guys are really into it and would likely provide more valid advice.
Have fun with whatever you get!

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

Hi Al, You didn't indicate what you plan on using the multi track recorder for and how much time you would like to spend on it. Jack Stoner's reply was right on track (no pun intended), but I have a Yamaha 4 track cassette recorder, and for my purposes it's very effective and very user friendly. I could have afforded to spend more money if I wanted to, but why should I, I don't intend on needing to do more with it than it has to offer. The fact that I can't change the individual mix of the three tracks I mix down to one, in order to free up more tracks, doesn't get in my way at all. Most of the time I don't even need to go that far. It really depends on your intention. Then again, if you're not sure, why not get more than you think you'll need. As my wife's mother used to say, "it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it." Good Luck -- Marc

Steve Stallings · From: Houston/Cypress, Texas

I'm still using original Adats with a 24 channel Mackie 8 Buss board. I may upgrade to the 20 bit adats at some point, but I'm kinda intrigued with the new Mackie 24 channel recorder. The adats have been very good and quite reliable. Folks, outboard equipment, like quality reverbs and decent mikes are a critical element. You can quickly spend well over $50k building a nice home studio.

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
Carter D10/Evans

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

Steve has a great point. If you want to get serious about home recording, the recorder itself will be the least of your costs. You can easily kill a few thousand on a single good mike and mike preamp. That's why I never have gotten into it myself, I have GAS (gear aquisition syndrome) enough with my steel equipment.

For a simple system for doing demos and live recording, I'm with Pete and others that the MD based recorders will sound good enough and they are very easy to use. The codecs have advanced to the point where it would be hard for any of us to tell the difference between a hard disk recorder and a compressed MD, using typical home equipment. Now if you had a $10,000 tube mike and a Massenberg mike preamp and D/A converter going into a 96K hard disk system, most of us could tell the difference, but most people won't have that kind of system in their music rooms.

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www.tyacktunes.com

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