Need help understanding some basics about using electric

Gerald K. Robbins · From: South Coast Oregon, USA

Hi,
Very new to steel.
I have used ele guitars, but not with steel.
The acoustic lap steels seems very forgiving when using the slide.
With the electric I am making some bad extra noises.
Have VP and reverb pedal.

When the steel hits the open strings, and when it's lifted off.
Also a big difference between barred strings and open.

I expected a steep learning curve, This is steep.

Are there any older posts on this subject?
If so please post links, or answer as willing.

bkentr

Paul Seager · From: Augsburg, Germany

My first advice is do not use pedals when learning an instrument. They will either hide or enhance mistakes but will not improve your playing.

Focus on Muting! You are playing with one finger - the bar! So your other fingers get used to stop unwanted tones playing.

1) Muting behind the bar. Use your ring and little finger to rest on the strings behind the steel bar. Watch any lap steel player on a YT video and you'll see their fingers splayed out behind the bar. This will cut down on overtones and also help reduce noise when lifting the bar.

2) The picking hand, playing lap steel really gets better when one masters muting at the picking end! Look for forum discussions (or YT videos) on palm and pick blocking. Often these are discussed as one vs. the other but this is not at all the case. They are two different methods that can be used for the same goal and both should be learnt. Some people find palm blocking the easier, first step. Pick blocking is harder to master but it is just practice. I am sure many experienced players could not tell you whether they use pick or palm during a song. It is something that one does instinctively once mastered.

Here's a good intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR5oVIDHgOU

Check how high you are holding the bar over the strings. I could not say how many fractions of an inch is correct but work on getting the bar closer to the strings when moving to another position.

My personal preference is to avoid using open strings. Now the music I play allows this but if you are going the blues route with e.g., an open D tuning I can imagine that open strings are an important part of that style, to get that drone effect.

It's a a great instrument but not one to be underestimated.
_________________
\paul

Bayern Hawaiians: https://www.youtube.com/@diebayernhawaiians3062
Other stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@paulseager3796/videos

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

Wow Paul provided a beautiful comprehensive response!
I agree it sounds like you are having muting issues.

I really like Jerome Hawkins’ pic in this thread to demonstrate how, like Paul said, the ring and little fingers rest behind the bar on the strings:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=279926

What tone bar are you using? A dobro style bar, bullet style, etc. It is worth trying different styles.

I don’t know what banjo technique is like but again, you are very fortunate if you are able to transfer pick skills over, because that is a steep learning curve in and of itself Wink

I use open strings often and while I guess they will always sound different to some degree, with practice it will smooth out and sound more homogenous

Gerald K. Robbins · From: South Coast Oregon, USA

Thanks Paul and Joe for your time to respond.

I have watched the links, and others that have poped up with the u-tube as it is.
I have also tried blocking and or muting to find a difference with the unwanted sounds.
Of course, it helps a lot.

But there are so many other things at the same time.
One is the extream sensitivity using the amp. Also the reverb and VP.
Sometimes something that should be simple, like slowing down and taking one step at a time,
turns out to be the hardest thing for me to do.

i've been here lots of times before. Like wanting the prize without running the race.
Another way I have said it in the past is like wanting to reach the upper landing without taking all of the steps.
Skipping steps is a sure way to trip and fall.

Your replies are a big help.
I will slow down, and keep on moving forward one step at a time.

Work with the Weissenborn and the jobro more, and turn off the reverb for the ele.
Keep just the high bass G and open D tunings for now.

It's a great thing to have a long term goal. i do want to be able to express my music with the slide as well as the banjo.
The steel adds something special to the sound, as so many have proven .

Don't have a bullet slide yet, but will find one to try.
I play with and without picks for banjo. For quiet times, and noisy times. Have LOTS of picks.

It is not the same motion for the steel guitar, and there will be a learning curve there too.
I keep on wanting to use "rolls" that I know, sometines that works, but those are not the "grips" spoken of
in the lessons. Just one more mountian to climb.

bkentr

Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

A lot of good advice here. Certainly the electric is going to be way more sensitive than acoustic and requires a lighter touch. Captain Obvious says that turning the treble down on your amp will help mitigate those zingy ear piercing noises. Also, I'd say banjo rolls don't really translate well. They are pretty percussive with the banjo, where with the steel you are picking the note, letting it sustain and then stopping it with your blocking. It would help to know what kind of music you are mostly interested in. There are a lot of variables as you go from Hawaiian to high gain rock, and everything in between.

Good luck and enjoy your journey! Small victories can be very satisfying as you build your skills.

Gerald K. Robbins · From: South Coast Oregon, USA

Hi Tim,
For sure lots of good advice here at SGF, and right here in this thread.

For banjo I've been using no picks for a softer and sometimes faster sound, with strumming included for vocals.
Then for louder and when playing along with others out come the picks, often with a hit it with a jackhammer approach,
as I was told many years ago to throw the banjo song out there like going for the goal post.
Not always welcome around the house, so at times off come the picks.

I've learned some bad habits with picks for playing carefully on a electric steel, but that's OK, Just another mountian to climb.

For music choices these days it's not any rock, not full on bluegrass, and not drikin' and cheatin' songs, though I love the country sound.

That leaves a lot. Old hymns on pedal steel is what got my attention and led to seeking out steel players past and present.

Hawaiian, bluesy, western swing, steel jazz, old standbys on steel, gospel,and DIY songs are where I would like to go with steel,
and that;s where I've been with banjo.

I'm looking forward to small victories, taking baby steps with electrified, hiting the jobro hard with picks, and being very careful
with the Weissenborn.

Already had some small victories this week.
I now know and accecpt that learning to use the steel will take a lot of time, help, and practice.

The GBDGBD tuning is where I've been with banjo, and I can find the notes with a slide. Some are clear.

The setting up of an old 6-string guitar/banjo as a jobro was well worth the cost of a set of strings, is fun to play and good to learn on.
Raising the action up 3/8 " cost nothing, just some scraps.

I can use the inside 5 strings of the D tuning, used on the Weissenborn, to play what I've learned on the jobro

With the help of the SGF there are people from all over the world willing to answer questions and help out a newby.

And I don't need much skill to check out vidios of folks playing steel, who know how to play .

bkentr

Joseph Lazo · From: Wisconsin, USA

Palm muting and fingers splayed out behind the bar to dampen strings, as others have said. I'll also sometimes use my picking hand thumb to mute the bass strings.

If you're resting your picking hand on one of those hand rests that a lot of steels have atop the pickup, try removing the hand rest. This will make muting with your palm much easier.

You might also try slipping a strip of foam under the strings at the nut (on the headstock side of the nut!), and also under the bridge to dampen some of the overtones.

Also, I'm a fool for reverb, but I'm finding it muddies up the sound. If you have a delay pedal, try using just the delay. Only enough to give some "space" to the sound.

Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

Some great advice above for a relative newby. In addition to blocking -- both with or without picks, plus with the heel of your hand -- muting behind the bar with your ring and pinky fingers is essential. Tim brings up an excellent point about the tone settings on your amp. My experience with my steels and many of my amps is that -- to my decrepit old ears, anyhow -- steels usually sound their best with the amps bass cranked up, and its treble turned down.

Gerald K. Robbins · From: South Coast Oregon, USA

Hi Joseph and Jack,
It's for sure I'm a new newby, around 2 months, anyboby with 3 or 4 months or more is an "old hand" to me.

Leading with fingers behind the bar is natural and easy to learn. Right palm or picks is not.

It's easy to turn up the bass, and turn down the treble, the reverb pedal has a stomp switch, thats easy too.
The RV 6 has delay. Won't be using that for now.

Don't have the same issues with acoustic, just electric. Looks like that will be another complete task to learn in addition to
using the slide.

Am having the most fun and success with the jobro.
Now have the lap tuned to DBGDBG to use what I've learned on jobro to then learn ele.

As I've said befor, the jobro was a low cost experiment and training tool.
It has worked out well enough to make the cost of a starter Dobro a possibility.

Might be time to try to pedal off an unused banjo. I would still have too many.

I am also wondering if a different bar might help with the electric, one of ceramic or stone.
I did try a chunk of broomstick. No noise when touching but noise when sliding. Too soft.
Rocky Mountian slides has some good choices.
And perhaps trying out some plastic finger picks to lessen the contact noise.

Just for the electric lap.
The ACRI heavys work great for the Weissenborn, and Dunlop metal works great for the jobro..

bkentr

Joseph Lazo · From: Wisconsin, USA

Gerald, what is a "jobro"? You've mentioned that a few times, and I have no idea what it is. Looked it up, but the only music related thing I could find is that it's a term for Jonas Brothers fans.

Gerald K. Robbins · From: South Coast Oregon, USA

Hi,
A jobro is a hybrid instrument.

Like a banjo uku - can be called a banjalele
Or a 6-string banjo - can be called a banjatar

What I have called a jobro is a 6 - string banjo that has the action raised up and played with a steel slide.
On lap or chair arms or on a workbench.
Just another experiment to find out how it sounds and to learn using the slide.

As I had all the parts hanging around my only cost was for a new set of strings.
The neck was taken from an old solid body guitar and made to fit a banjo pot years ago.

nowtuned to GBDGBD.

bkentr

Joseph Lazo · From: Wisconsin, USA

Gerald, thanks for the explanation! I had heard of banjolele and banjotars before, but never this jobro creation. The juxtaposition of the '80 shredder guitar style headstock with the banjo body is pretty amusing.

Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

Gerald, it sounds like you could use about a dozen real, actual, in-person lessons to get off the ground--and nip bad habits in the bud.

Is there a teacher near you?

Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

What kind of finger picks are you using? Thumb pick?

Yes, buy a bar. Dunlop makes'em: 40 bucks from Sweetwater This is essential--a chunk of broomstick won't do.

Also: what kind of steel are you playing?

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

Interesting that you have a reentrant G there, it is a banjo after all…

In the 30s, there was an interesting, moderately popular variation on that also with a reentrant string down there.
Except instead of being a high G string like banjo, it was a middle G, tuned down to F.

D
B
G
D
B
f

(The whole tuning was a step up in A instead of G back then though)

Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

Gerald K. Robbins · From: South Coast Oregon, USA

Yes, the headstock is amusing to me too, but the price was right as that neck was a throw away 20 years ago and free back then.
Money has always been a major factor. Or lack of it. That has not stopped me from experimenting, building,recycling, and enjoying the results.
No different now, just SS for income, and many more important things needing funding. And the price of daily life just keeps on growing.

We live close to a small coastal town. One mile from the Pacific. No "in person" teachers close by. The one music store anywhere on the south coast,
"OreCoast music" is 30 miles away. Won't be going there for lessons even if they had any.

Have lots of picks. Use Dunlop and ACRI for fingers, Golden Gate multi color and Zookies for thumb. Also use "no picks" for quiet times.

There is a Dunlop/Shubb bar in the jobro pic. Also have one with "GS" stamped into the wood top, has stainless on bottom for slide.
My friend with the Gretch had it and let me buy it from him. Very comfortable to use.
The wood broomstick was an experiment to see if that would make less noise when touching the strings for the electric lap.

The electric lap steel I now have is a DIY , 24.5 " scale, 6 string, with a Select brand bar pickup, now also tuned to high base G.
It works, but i'm now thinking I need a lot more time and practice on acoustic before adding the extra skills needed for electric.

When I took the pictures of the jobro it was in open D tuning with a high d in place of the low D. That felt more familiar and more like a banjo,
i have since changed the tuning to Dobro G, high base, and miss that reentrant string a bit.

I was just thinking about what it might take to add a 7th high g as per 5-string banjo using a 5th string tuner.
So I was surprised when Jack asked about his 1941 Kalamazoo 7 string and thinking that a g would fit there if tuned to high base G.

Or an a if tuned up to the key of A.

bkentr

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

That is a very cool guitar! In the Alvino Rey method (1937) he lists a bunch of tunings, mostly variations of E7th and A7th.
The only reentrant tuning he includes besides those A7th tunings with the middle G is quite similar to yours:
E
C
G
E
C
bb

That Alvino Rey book is in E7th, Gibson's own Mastertone course was based on E7th, the Roger Filberto method, now put out by Mel Bay, was originally published by Gibson in 1939.
There seemed to be this belief that E7th, with it's increased capabilities over A tunings was becoming the standard tuning.
But right around that time at the end of 30s and early 40s the so-called C#m7th tuning seems to have become incredibly popular and started appearing in materials.

Eddie Alkire (before he went off the deep end with his E-Harp tuning) on C#m7th E C# G# E D B:
"It is the tuning which nearly all professional and advanced platers eventually adopt and feature.
This latest and most modern tuning combines many of the good features of all tunings"

...then along came C6th Laughing

If a G string doesn't fit the slot for A7th tuning, I'd guess on that guitar it was most likely some kind of E based tuning.
In 1941 I am sure some people noticed that the two most fashionable tunings E7th and C#m7th only differed by one string.
So one hypothetical 7 string possibility that I am sure was tried back then is:

E
C#
G#
E
D
B
b

The tuning you have on there now is very cool, as along with having the full range of C6th, that skinny Bb has some different sounds being a higher voiced 7th than in most steel tunings.

Gerald K. Robbins · From: South Coast Oregon, USA

Hi
I started out asking for help with learning about using electric lap steel.
i thank you all who added some help for that .

I will add one more post to include another form of help that came as a bit of a suprise.

After I sold a big boat recently, there were lots of spare boat parts left over.
Sold those to a man who rebuilds old outboard motors for selling.
Turned out he was also a music and guitar player and said he would include a guitar in the sale price.

So he came by Sunday and left off 3.

One is a very nice, for china built, Copley big box 6-string with a cutout, built in pickup, and bulging top for that high action feature.

Ready for a new ebony raised nut, set of locking tuners, and new strings. All of which were on hand.

This will be another good training tool as i can play the same things with or without the amp to transition into all electric.

The price was right.

bkentr

Forum Index > Steel Without Pedals		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic