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Topic: When to use just intonation, when to use equal temperament |
Andrew Roblin
From:
Various places
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Posted 23 Feb 2024 5:08 am |
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Imho...
Use just intonation:
When the main (loudest) definite-pitch instruments you're playing with also use 'just intonation, such as voice, fiddle, horns and string bass.
When to use equal temperament:
When the main (loudest) definite-pitch instruments you're playing with also use equal temperament, such a guitar, keyboards and electric bass.
Trust your ears, not a tuner. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Feb 2024 9:18 am
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The steel needs to sound right in itself.
If you try to tune note for note with a keyboard you will sacrifice the sweetening you would normally use.
On my uni 12 I tune the E9 changes to JI for sonority and the B6 to ET because the close harmonies and altered chords work better that way.
There is no real meaning in the idea that fiddles or horns play in JI. I play trombone, and a horn section will settle into natural intervals if the notes are long enough, but in real life there's rarely time.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2024 9:22 am
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| Tune whatever, but play by ear. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 23 Feb 2024 10:27 am
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Which am I supposed to use when I am playing with an electric guitar player and an acoustic guitar player...and they both feel compelled to slap on a capo for certain songs?
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2024 10:51 am
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Hah!
And…what if they capo at different frets? |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2024 10:56 am
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Harmony singers, horns, strings tune to Just Intonation... and play along on the same song with guitars and keyboards tuned to Equal Temperament.
Different tuning systems that technically are clashing on certain intervals.
Not only does it sound good -- if either camp changed their tuning system the ears would revolt. We require they tune to their respective systems.
Pedal steel guitars have the ability to get away with tuning either way, or any point in between the two systems. It can all sound 'in tune' in the right hands. So... they can be like harmony singers and tune their intervals to Just Intonation -- even when playing with louder 6-strings tuned to ET.
Proof: the entire history of pedal steel guitar recordings up until the era of electronic tuners. Most were tuned by ear, which is Just Intonation. Even after cheap tuners came along, most steel players still tune to something other than ET. And it sounds really good if the player knows how to manipulate the bar properly and play in tune.
So, yes, trust your ears above all else. But that doesn't dogmatically mean one is better off using ET if playing in a guitar/keyboard-heavy band. Very few people go that route in the real world -- because they don't want to lose that sweetness that makes the steel so appealing. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 23 Feb 2024 12:41 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
Hah!
And…what if they capo at different frets? |
Their guitars are so out of tune...perhaps that's problem! 
I'm tired of trying to teach them about the proper placement of a capo...and the importance of checking their tuning once it's placed.
~Lee |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 23 Feb 2024 12:51 pm
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| Quote: |
| they don't want to lose that sweetness that makes the steel so appealing. |
I played in a band with a keyboard player who had a knack for following me around during songs. I hear him move up and would try to move down to keep my "sweet" chords out of his range.
He would hear me move down and follow me, playing the same chord voicings.
There certainly wasn't any thing sweet about us playing the same chord in the same octave!
I had to stop playing 3-note chords with that group.
~Lee |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 23 Feb 2024 5:31 pm
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Tune your steel so it sounds good to itself, then use the bar to play in tune with the band, no matter what instruments they use. No need to use the JI or ET words.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2024 2:36 pm
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What worked for me was:
-Tune the guitar to itself albeit there are compromises if there are no compensators being utilized.
-Establish if you’re working with familiar musicians/arrangements. If I’m on strange turf I use extreme descretion and proceed as follows below.
-If everyone else is tuned JI as described by the OP I will be more liberal but IN Tune. Some of the other musicians may not have good tuning regimens or not have developed their technique.
-If there are guitars and keyboards as described in the OP see below.
-Stay away from 3rds and triads as much as possible unless I’m soloing or filling. I should be the loudest/dominant instrument at that specific time so I can usually get away with it.). Again, it helps to know what the guitarist and keyboards will be doing.
-Try to play 1’s & 5’s or power chords when vamping or other background support stuff.
-Do the above tactics while listening/adjusting to be IN TUNE.
Utilizing the tactics above helped me minimize problems. I’m sure I’ve already forgotten some things but I hope that helps.
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 24 Feb 2024 3:22 pm
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A quote from Paul Franklin. Tune to the center of the pitch of all the other players.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 25 Feb 2024 8:17 am
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| Lee Baucum wrote: |
Which am I supposed to use when I am playing with an electric guitar player and an acoustic guitar player...and they both feel compelled to slap on a capo for certain songs?
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Pretty tough to play in tune with that combination.
| Quote: |
| Tune your steel so it sounds good to itself, then use the bar to play in tune with the band, no matter what instruments they use. |
Easier said than done when the Telecaster is out of tune with itself and the Taylor is out of tune with itself...
...and those two guitars aren't in tune with each other!
On those songs, I just have to limit myself to playing single note lines and hope for the best.
~Lee |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2024 9:01 am
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| Quote: |
| Tune to the center of the pitch of all the other players. |
That is so brilliant what Paul F. said and so so TRUE. I now play with two fretted guitars and fretted Bass...and they are alllll over the place and it really is my NON fretted instrument that brings them together>"In my Ear" that is really what we do if we have any sense of hearing intonation> "WITH THE INFACIST ON HEARING"....so it actually will really come together for a steel player needing to blend intonation; but working on Intonation with "FIXED PITCH" >here ya go>
https://www.dronetonetool.com/
Just push a keyboard key and turn your reverb/effects off and play single notes and harmony notes to that pitch..and practice hearing it IN TUNE NO WOBBLES and practice a quick hearing it OUT OF TUNE WITH WOBBLES; is great practice in progression your ear to Hear Proper Intonation. My Mentors through the years have always encouraged me to practice this forEVER.
P.S. my mentors: Lloyd Green; Tom Brumley; Gary Carpenter....and more.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 25 Feb 2024 10:33 am
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| Lee Baucum wrote: |
| Quote: |
| they don't want to lose that sweetness that makes the steel so appealing. |
I played in a band with a keyboard player who had a knack for following me around during songs. I hear him move up and would try to move down to keep my "sweet" chords out of his range.
He would hear me move down and follow me, playing the same chord voicings.
There certainly wasn't any thing sweet about us playing the same chord in the same octave!
I had to stop playing 3-note chords with that group.
~Lee |
I forgot to mention this. When I knew for sure that keyboard player would be on stage with us, I could retune my guitar to ET and those issues would disappear and I could play more than two notes at a time.
~Lee |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2024 12:02 pm
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The major 3rd and perfect 5th overtones of the drone note are pretty clearly audible in that tool. So, maybe it has some value for practice but it does not produce a true drone note. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 25 Feb 2024 12:17 pm
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If the guitars are out of tune with themselves and with each other, then it doesn't matter how you tune--everything will sound off. Play single notes to get through the night and then start looking for other people to play with.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
Last edited by Paul Sutherland on 3 Mar 2024 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2024 3:53 pm
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That’s great, Paul Sutherland.
Somebody had to say it. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 25 Feb 2024 4:16 pm
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| Quote: |
| start looking for other people to play with. |
Not gonna do that. I've been playing with these guys for many years and it's just a couple of songs where they both use capos.
My point being, no amount of bar placement, ear training, tuning to the center of the pitch, etc is going to help in a situation like this.
It's easier to stay away from the dumpster fire as much as possible until the capos come off on the next song.
~Lee |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Feb 2024 4:56 pm
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Your job as a musician is to make it sound good, so you have to play to the tonal center regardless of the other instruments. Instead of trying to learn different tuning methods to go with different instruments, learn one tuning and then master it as best you can, making that method work with anything. And if there are certain things you play that don't sound good with everybody else, certain intervals or chords you're trying to play, then don't play them! Play something else! Use your ears! Cover the fretboard and just play octaves if you have to. Just do something that fits, and go on.  |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2024 5:19 pm
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| Quote: |
| I've been playing with these guys for many years and it's just a couple of songs where they both use capos. |
Lee, if I may be so bold…
There are lots of reasons why a capo can push guitar strings out of tune (usually sharp). User error, jumbo frets, worn frets, old strings, new unbroken-in strings, bowed neck, and funky spring-loaded capos (not all spring-loaded capos; I have used a Kyser for many years with little trouble). If your picker dudes aren’t doing good maintenance, the tuning will suffer, particularly when using a capo.
Old trick, but still worth mentioning-
Sometimes just giving the offending string(s) a yank will pull them back in tune. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 25 Feb 2024 6:14 pm
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I've spent time with both of them, talking about how something as simple as the proper placement of a good quality capo can produce good results. (I've been an acoustic guitarist for 50 years.)
The Tele player has gotten much better; but, not the acoustic player.
He stands just a couple of feet from my left elbow on stage. More often than not, the capo will be placed at a jaunty angle across the space between the two frets! He's the lead singer and is concentrating on the next song. Sometimes I can catch him in time to adjust his capo.
Oh well, I think I've shoved this discussion way off topic.
~Lee |
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John Alexander
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Posted 3 Mar 2024 8:35 pm
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| Ricky Davis wrote: |
Back in the day when my Ex and I had a band; there was NO FRETS in our band and was the most in-tune band I've ever played with.
Leslie> Singer/Fiddle
Ricky > Pedal Steel
Ric > Upright Bass
Timmy > Drums
https://youtu.be/gjN5CDNPDDI?si=1lVC1tVnSEGA8bGo
Ricky |
Marvelous! |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 4 Mar 2024 4:10 am
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| Tune your steel so it sounds good to itself, then use the bar to play in tune with the band, no matter what instruments they use. No need to use the JI or ET words. |
Nothing more to see here |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 4 Mar 2024 9:22 am
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Just what I keep saying, but when Paul says it people take notice! 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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