Mullen Lower Issue

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

A young steel player recently acquired a Mullen RP U-12. The 8th string lowering from E to D won't reach to D. The pulling finger hits the back of of the changer frame. There's only about 1/8 inch clearance from the back of the fingers to the changer frame on all of the pulling fingers. I'm sure this problem has come up before, but I can't find any solutions in searching the forum. Currently, I can see the possibility of using a jeweler's file in that rear space and filing the aluminum frame back a little farther behind the 8th string finger? The E to Eb lower on string 8 is good, but there's not enough clearance to get to D.
Thanks for any input.
String guage is .030. The other option is to use .028, but the string would have a loose feel down to D.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Photo is of Willy but the same idea. G2 guitars have split screws at the end of the neck. Make sure it's backed out enough for the amount of change needed.

Else, try to get more travel by either rod position selection or adjusting the lever stop.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

There are no split screws on the changer. When we realized it wouldn't lower far enough, the stops and rod changes crossed my mind, but with further investigation, found the pulling finger had bottomed out on the changer frame. The issue seems to be the finger can't move back any farther because it's against the changer frame. I just now left an email with Mullen. I'm sure the problem has been dealt with before. I was hoping someone would have already found the solution other than disassembling the changer to repair it. A small flat file is the only solution I see for now. All of the fingers line up straight, so it's not a potential issue with only the 8th string. It looks to be a clearance issue.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I've never heard of a top quality guitar like a Mullen needed to be modified to do the most basic thing, so my guess is that the problem is elsewhere.

The most likely candidate is that the change is overtuned. Since the nut is cinched down too far, the finger is already partially pulled into doing a lower and is 'frozen' there instead of being in actual neutral position... and it's from that funky fake-neutral position that the open string is tuned to E. That much works fine, but when the knee lever is hit to do the lower, there isn't enough travel left to get all the way down to pitch so it hits the endplate. You should be able to see this with the guitar upside down; the end of the changer finger on the 8th string (where the spring attaches) won't be in line with the others. To fix, try loosening all the nylon nuts for strings on that knee lever. Then tune open, then tune the nut for the lower.

It's also possible the lower-return spring is too tight -- the force that normally would be absorbed there moves over to the raise finger as the tight spring is stretched out. This introduces a slight bit of raise action while you're trying to do a lower. The net result of those two counteracting forces is that you don't get all the way down to your target pitch.

You might be able to see if this is what's happening: Move over to the end of the guitar and look at that 8th string raise section of the changer, (looking behind the nylon nuts at the thin metal plate that the nuts rest on).

Activate the knee lever by hand. In perfect world, you'll see the 'lower' section of the changer move as expected -- but the upper 'raise' section shouldn't move. If it moves inward, you've confirmed that the problem is that the raise finger is being activated when it shouldn't be.

Try loosening the lower-return spring, but only do it a little. And keep up with how far you've turned the screw so you can put it all back if need be; it might be that the changer is catching internally at the rivet and what really needs to happen is a lube job.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Yeah, sorry....I was sure I read G2 in the original post...so no splits on the RP...

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I've worked on the major brands of guitars over the years (Franklin, Williams, ShoBud, MSA, BMI, GFI, Zum), but never a mullen until now. I had it upside down on my work bench and went through a ritual of visuals while very slowly activating the floor pedal that lowers it to D. I saw no unusual movement of the scissor. It has a raise helper on that string. I removed it and still no unusual movement. I activated the pedal very slowly and the string slowly lowers as the finger moves backwards, but it just stops against the frame. I had a similar problem with the lower on both (1975 and 1976) of my U-12 MSA's and the only remedy I could find was to remove the bar stop plate and file out the area of that stop to allow the scissor to move farther back, which was a fix that was common among earlier MSA changer design for U-12 lower of the 8th string. I think this Mullen is an earlier model and a problem that was corrected in later models of changer design, but I can't say that for certain since I'm not familiar with Mullen guitars. Most all-pull scissor guitars a basically the same engineering design, but clearances of movement vary and changers upgrade over the years. I just don't want to have to disassemble the changer for what might be a simple remedy for this guitar. I only spent about 1/2 hour with this one upside down. Maybe putting in a little more visual time I can find another solution outside of a file job? The MSA was an easy fix, since the stop plate is easy to access by removing 4 screws and putting it in a vise and filing a small slot into the plate at that finger location. I don't see where the Mullen has a removable stop plate? As I said, all of the fingers line up perfectly across the back and all have only 1/8 inch or less clearance to the stop along the back. It looks like the stop and changer frame are one in the same? I tried all of the above ideas? I think it's got a booger? lol. Hopefully, Mullen will respond back soon.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

That is a weird one, Dennis. Never seen that, but sounds like you have on other guitars and you're on it. Hopefully, Mullen has a solution.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

There's another way around it and he may be open to it? He said, if he lowers the tuning to Eb9th and retunes the pedals, it will travel from open Eb down to C#. Two solutions come to mind. Use a .028 guage string and stay with E9/B6 or tune it to Eb9/Bb6 or D9/A6. He's a music major and plays jazz guitar and not yet settled on a universal copedent. He likes the deeper tones on steel.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I think a thinner string makes the problem worse -- it requires more travel to make a given pitch change.

You know, it's possible the gauge of that 8th string that's on there was mislabeled (or it's defective), or it's actually a thinner 7 stg string that was accidentally installed in the 8th slot. Might be good to just swap out that string and see what's up.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Could be a defective string or wrong package. He was having the problem before he put a new set of SIT strings on it. After the new set, same problem. So, I don't think it's the issue? What makes me think of going to a lighter quage on the 8th is, when he tunes it down to Eb9th it will make it to the flatted seventh tone. Normally, an Eb tuning would require a little heavier string (maybe .032?) to get the proper tension. The .030 guage on an Eb9th tuning would be a little lighter and it does make it down to the b7 note. It's a brain racker! I'm leaning toward a mechanical issue and that Mullen has already solved the problem with a slightly different changer design? MSA made a slightly different design to their scissor after the similar problem that I mentioned above. I think when you get into U-12 vs D-10 or S-10, the culprit shows up with certain strings that won't travel far enough with U-12 tuning. Example: U-12 string 9 (B to D) raise or in this case string 8 (E to D) lower. Both require more travel than the standard 10 string tuning. Especially on the older changers. On the 9th string (B to D) raise, sometimes it requires a little more tension on the return spring to keep it from lifting off of the changer stop. The lowering problem always seems a little more of a challenge.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

The Universal 12 string sets I use, Have a .030 wound 8th string.
The core diameter is what controls the raise and lower length of movement on a wound string.
Check the string size with a mike or dial caliper, And compare chore diameter with the string removed.

If this problem just came up all a once, It is the string or something else that just happened all at once.

The rivets, finger and lower lever in some changers take a beating on the 4-8 string because the strings both lower and raise.

Good luck finding the problem and a quick solution.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

There's a thought, core wire. I've had that issue with Jagwire hex core wire changing my pedal travel in the past. Heavier core wire with lighter winding or lighter core wire with heavier winding. I don't know if most string manufactures get into that detail when selling their strings? I don't know what brand was on his guitar when he bought it. I know he just put SIT on it and it has the same issue. I'd have to email GHS, SIT, Jagwire and others to find out which size core wire they use on their .030 strings.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I just measured the 8th string in the S12 SIT nickel coated Universal set I put on my S12 Uni. The string diameter is .030, The core is .015 diameter. Hope this helps.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

I don’t have a fix but I’m very puzzled that a fine guitar like a Mullen would have such an issue. I wouldn’t file on anything because something else wrong somewhere.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I made contact with Mullen and forwarded the process of figuring out the problem with the new owner of the guitar. Mullen wanted to know how old the guitar is and some photos of the changer. Could be a worn rivet in the changer? I'll post results when I get more info. Maybe the older changers had closer tolerances to the changer structure? We'll find the problem and post it.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

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