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Topic: using dominant 7 chords not on the V? |
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2024 9:11 am |
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I am trying to get some insight into the use of Dominant 7 chords outside of the usual V chord. I realize in blues especially or Rock and Roll for that matter, the I chord is often a Dom. chord as well as the IV chord (and the II chord which seems to function like the IV chord), but this opens up a complete pandoras box in my mind. Are we just substituting a Dom. for a major chord (or minor chord) where the song has a bluesy type melody? Maybe I am overthinking this??? Any rules pertaining to this? Many times you see descending dominants, which seem to just take you to another tonal center or back to the original one.
As I have gotten more into 6th type tunings, I have gotten away from the sound of Dom chords and I am trying to bring it back in. It is so natural on standard guitar to use these chords, but it is pretty difficult in 6th type tunings on steel guitar. |
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Robert Murphy
From:
West Virginia
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Posted 19 Jan 2024 9:19 am
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| In the typical C6 tuning ( lo-hi ) C E G A C E I find strings 2-3-4 give me root seven five (A G E ). I use this all the time, if you add it up another way it’s a minor 7th chord on all six strings. Very useful. Think 3 frets up from home and you are there. |
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Peter Krebs
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2024 9:41 am
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| I think of non-V dominant 7th chords as indicative of a temporary key change within a tune. They usually have a specific chord they’ll resolve to, major or minor, which is (generally) a fourth away(or tge tritone of that chord, if you’re feeling nutty). The II7 is the V of the V chord, for example. I’ve found it helpful to know my Dom 7th combinations (ie, what chord they want to resolve to). Beyond that, it’s a sound that has some tension to it and feels like a question that you can choose to answer with a resolving chord, or not. |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 19 Jan 2024 11:08 pm
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There is an interesting explanation of secondary dominants in this recent video. I like this guy. Often a good start to the day with extra breakfast fare.
FWIW, I have always explained secondary dominants as fleeting modulations but this makes more sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gWVSazHaZs. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2024 6:42 am
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| Guy Cundell wrote: |
There is an interesting explanation of secondary dominants in this recent video. I like this guy. Often a good start to the day with extra breakfast fare.
FWIW, I have always explained secondary dominants as fleeting modulations but this makes more sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gWVSazHaZs. |
Really great video! I have watched a bunch of his other ones,I think this is best jazz guitar YouTube channel. There is so much packed into his explanations, it is easy to gloss over them, but you could spend months on most of these, especially cause I am switching back and forth between steel and standard guitars.
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| Beyond that, it’s a sound that has some tension to it and feels like a question that you can choose to answer with a resolving chord, or not. |
I think this is really what I was struggling with. In the video the first thing he states is the scale is not the Key and I think this is an easy trap to fall into. Dominant chords are the primary way to introduce tension into a song to keep it interesting. The most basic way is using them in a static way like an old droning blues tune. I really like how you explained this!
I think it is making more sense! Time to practice... |
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Lloyd Graves
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2024 8:29 am
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Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding what a dominant 7 chords is, but I think it's just a 1-3-5-b7, right? If so:
A nice percentage of times by the a Mississippi Sheiks, as well as other blues and jug band songs use Dominant 7 chords to cycle Stone the circle of fifths.
One of the simpler examples is Rag Mama, or Salty Dog. I sing the former in D, so the chords are BEAD, which starts on the VI chord (B) and rolls through to the I chord (D). So half way through each chord I add the b7.
You can pick up the circle of fifths any where on the circle, too, or at in other parts to make a song more complex. Examples of more complex uses include Tampa Red's "I'm falling in Love again," Shine on Harvest Moon, Merle Travis's "3x7," and Show me the Way to go Home.
That's my very limited two cents, anyhow. Good luck. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 20 Jan 2024 9:23 am
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When a ii-7 (min7) is used in front of a dominant, it’s called a predominant. When a II7 (dominant) is used, it’s called a secondary dominant. I’ve written a lot about this and it is a big part of my teaching because it’s essential information. In fact, in jazz and swing, the vi chord, typically minor in the diatonic key, is almost always a VI7. The use of the dominant allows for more color by the improviser. Beboppers use the min7 most often as a predominant, but also sometimes use a min7 to substitute for the V7 ( for example, Dm7 Dbm7 Cm7 F7 for a turnaround instead of Dm7 G7 Cm7 F7).
You really have to spend a lot of time listening, transcribing and analyzing and eventually you should begin to understand the tendencies in certain styles and also to form your own choices. That is part of the fun about becoming fluent in that language, the fact that you can play your own games and make your own choices. I have a lot of fun with that.
My advice is listen to as much jazz blues and rhythm changes as you can. Even if you aren’t really a fan of bebop and post-bop, it is a great learning tool for gaining an understanding of the harmonic puzzles.
Understand that rhythm changes (I Got Rhythm) in its simplest form has very few chord changes: the A section consists of I IV and V (not in that order). In the bridge, it backcycles dominant 7th chords III-VI-II-V. The chords that are usually added to the basic changes are there for movement and excitement. That is why it’s always thrilling when you hear someone really nailing the changes in their improvisation. It definitely doesn’t come overnight.
This topic can go as deep as you want it to, but it all boils down to listening and when you can, playing with others, especially those who are a level above you. That is the way that I learned most effectively. A good musical butt whooping is always a good motivational tool.
Tunes to listen to: Oleo, Thriving On A Riff, Red Cross, The Flintstones Theme, Lester Leaps In, Seven Come Eleven.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2024 8:56 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
This topic can go as deep as you want it to, but it all boils down to listening and when you can, playing with others, especially those who are a level above you. That is the way that I learned most effectively. A good musical butt whooping is always a good motivational tool.
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The best advice is often the hardest to follow! I have burrowed myself into a hole here literally! My practice room is the small, ( freezing!) utility room in the basement. At some point I may try to get out there, but the challenges of finding a venue friendly for the instrument and music I'm playing seem quite limited. I am definitely not ready for that. The challenge is creating excitement in solo arrangements and hopefully soon multitracking some recordings. Practicing with iReal pro is always a reality check, but that is a great tool.
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| One issue I have is that most everything I have found on theory is written by classical or jazz musicians and pushes last what I want to know. I need a theory class/book for people that want to understand old swing, early blues, jugband and rags. |
Lloyd, I come from this school, right there with you. Mostly I am focusing on older vocal standards which are way easier to learn and the melodies are already familiar. Hoagy Carmichael etc. I just use the chord charts and play the melodies I hear by ear. I can plunk my way through a bunch of them, but now I am trying to get past the vanilla changes. I listen to a lot of solo piano and trios. Just discovered, Clarence Profit.. It is not as easy to learn later (Jazzier?) more modern tunes.. Listening to Monk for the past week has really got me thinking about Dominant chords. He seems to be a very good bridge between these older folkier styles of jazz and the more complex modern jazz. He has a way of keeping that tension going using very dissonant chords which become less dissonant the longer you listen. It is almost like he changes how you hear these chords. Hard to explain! It really feels like folk music and almost seems to have more in common with the old southern blues players I can't get enough of. Many of whom also played piano as well Skip James, Blind Blake, Leadbelly... Getting past the theory to the music is the ultimate goal obviously.
Here are some interesting facts I learned this morning! Food for thought..
The pentatonic scale arises out of the Circle of fifths. https://www.simplifyingtheory.com/circle-of-fifths-and-circle-of-fourths/
The Coltrane changes spell out an augmented triad - and the minor Coltrane changes spell out a diminished 7th chord https://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz-piano-lessons/jazz-chord-progressions/coltrane-changes/ |
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Lloyd Graves
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2024 10:00 am
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Oooh! I haven't known that! It's nice to have another way to figure this stuff out! Thanks. |
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