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Topic: Another beginner, lots of questions… |
Jason Arvíso
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2024 6:00 am |
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| I’m looking to buy my first instrument and have some questions. (I want a standard, 10 string PSG.) First off it sounds to me like the Emmons copedent is what is considered “standard.” Would you agree? Should I steer clear of models that have been setup in some other fashion? Secondly, I’ve been told 3x4 is the bare minimum for a PSG. (I don’t want to buy something and outgrow it too quickly.) Would you agree that 3x4 is the way to go? What is the big difference between an all-pull and pull-release instrument and should I be looking for one or the other or does it even matter? Also, can someone explain what cabinet drop is and if it’s something I should worry about? Finally, I’ve been told some lighter weight PSGs have a tendency to “walk.” Is that always the case? Is it the weight that determines that or the spacing of the legs or both? Should that be a concern when buying my first instrument? Just for reference, my budget is in the $2k range. I know Justice and Stage One make excellent guitars within that price range. Are there any other new or used instruments I should consider? (I’m hoping to not have to wait for one to be built but if a Justice or Stage One are the way to go I will.) I know I’ve asked a lot of questions but this is a big purchase and I’d like to get a better idea of what to look for and so much of this is new to me. Thanks in advance. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 14 Jan 2024 7:07 am Re: Another beginner, lots of questions…
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| Jason Arvíso wrote: |
| I’m looking to buy my first instrument and have some questions. (I want a standard, 10 string PSG.) First off it sounds to me like the Emmons copedent is what is considered “standard.” Would you agree? Should I steer clear of models that have been setup in some other fashion? Secondly, I’ve been told 3x4 is the bare minimum for a PSG. (I don’t want to buy something and outgrow it too quickly.) Would you agree that 3x4 is the way to go? What is the big difference between an all-pull and pull-release instrument and should I be looking for one or the other or does it even matter? Also, can someone explain what cabinet drop is and if it’s something I should worry about? Finally, I’ve been told some lighter weight PSGs have a tendency to “walk.” Is that always the case? Is it the weight that determines that or the spacing of the legs or both? Should that be a concern when buying my first instrument? Just for reference, my budget is in the $2k range. I know Justice and Stage One make excellent guitars within that price range. Are there any other new or used instruments I should consider? (I’m hoping to not have to wait for one to be built but if a Justice or Stage One are the way to go I will.) I know I’ve asked a lot of questions but this is a big purchase and I’d like to get a better idea of what to look for and so much of this is new to me. Thanks in advance. |
If it's what you have heard mostly on records in Country and Pop, E9th would be most "standard" with BE E9th, yes.
3 & 5 (so you DO get used to a vertical lever on the left knee) would seem the perfect complete setup. If you like the more modern sound created by Paul Franklin and his followers, you might even want to get the 4th "PF" pedal.
I am not a big fan of "Student" or "Entry Level" PSG. Most have limitations like fixed setups, no tunable splits and other shortcomings and may not sound as good as a good quality "Pro"-level guitar (even thou, some exceptions have made a name for themselves. A "Pro" level guitar in great condition, like a Carter, Mullen, MCI or EMCI, etch which are not "antiques" bought right, will always sell again with little or no loss. Student or Entry Level guitars are more difficult to sell.
Get an ALL-Pull first, with min. 3 raises, 3 lower capability and split tuning (that's the ability to fine tune the value of (example): raising a whole tone with a pedal and lowering half with another change for a total half tone raise.)
Some will urge you to go to a SG convention and "kick the tires" there, and I agree as long as you will have the ability to steer clear off from BS'ing "salesmen". Some name-players can be very generously helpful, others have a road circus attitude and no problem to BS newbies into buying a wiggly old thing with talk about who all played on it in Nashville.
LISTEN to music, learn not only from Pedal Steel players... but also guitar, piano, and wind players... there is so much information available now on youtube and videos.
If classical Country is your thing, try to get some Jeff Newman videos, and invest in Paul Franklin's full E9th online course.
... J-D.
_________________
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Jon Voth
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2024 7:47 am
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| Cabinet drop is when you press pedals down and it bends the guitar body so slightly that the other strings go flat. Like on a regular guitar if you pushed forward on the neck and held the body. I wouldn't worry about it at all. |
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Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2024 8:05 am Assuming you want Emmons setup...
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Do yourself a favor & approach the Pedal Steel Guitar, with an "open mind". While the Emmons' Copedent, may be thought of as "the Standard", that may not be totally true.
It is a Fact, that Human Kinetics states this, "the ankle can move more, radially, outward, for most individuals, than Radially Inward". That says this, some folks may want something different, than the Standard" ???
I bought my first Sho~bud D-10 in 1973, with the help of an accomplished Steel Player. He said he would take the guitar & switcH the PEDALS & KNEES to reflect THE Jimmy Day System, in lieu of the Buddy Emmons' System. That's how I learned to play. If I hadn't switched, the other way would have caused me to QUIT, I could NOT move left & right with my left foot.
Good Luck to you all....
_________________
Steel Guitar players are members of a Special Family |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 14 Jan 2024 9:07 am
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Buy the justice because he is near by and get started. You won’t know what you don’t know till you know ! So get started and practice a lot. Then practice more. Find a local guy who plays on a professional level to help if possible. The main thing is to get started.
Forget about getting something perfect. Just get something decent. As you learn you will find what suits you. You can resell and upgrade if needed at that point.
Learning how to play the pedalsteel is super fun, challenging and captivating.
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Bob |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Jan 2024 10:31 am
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The Emmons’ setup is the most popular. But ergonomically, as Charley says, the Day setup is easier on the ankle and more comfortable to play, especially if you have flexibility problems.
From what I see, somewhere around thirty percent play a Day setup.
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 14 Jan 2024 12:01 pm
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One thing that I needed to deal with my first Steel is the height itself. Standard are 26" legs and rods, but I found that too difficult to reach the vertical lever and to get a comfortable grip on the other levers. I had new legs and rods that were an inch shorter. If you are particularly tall, you might need an inch higher than standard. So much of a pedal steel needs to be adjusted to your specific body that it makes sense to get behind a few steels to see what fits you best.
Also the seat can make a big difference. I started out with a pack seat, but it was really too low and fixed for me. I switched to a drum throne which has adjustable height and that solved a lot of ergonomic problems for me.
The other big choice is E's lowered on the left or right. Paul Franklin has them lowered on the right which is what I also did. But the thing about that is, it is also the leg with your volume pedal so sometimes it can be difficult to regulate the volume tone while engaging the E's lowered lever.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Jan 2024 5:17 pm
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
The other big choice is E's lowered on the left or right. Paul Franklin has them lowered on the right which is what I also did. But the thing about that is, it is also the leg with your volume pedal so sometimes it can be difficult to regulate the volume tone while engaging the E's lowered lever. |
That can be an issue if you put your volume pedal close to the pedalboard. If you move the volume pedal back, away from the pedalboard, your knee doesn't go up and down nearly as much when you operate the volume pedal.  |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 15 Jan 2024 6:04 pm
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
Buy the justice because he is near by and get started. You won’t know what you don’t know till you know ! So get started and practice a lot. Then practice more. Find a local guy who plays on a professional level to help if possible. The main thing is to get started.
Forget about getting something perfect. Just get something decent. As you learn you will find what suits you. You can resell and upgrade if needed at that point.
Learning how to play the pedalsteel is super fun, challenging and captivating. |
Agreed.
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Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 15 Jan 2024 9:35 pm
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| Lee Baucum wrote: |
| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
Buy the justice because he is near by and get started. You won’t know what you don’t know till you know ! So get started and practice a lot. Then practice more. Find a local guy who plays on a professional level to help if possible. The main thing is to get started.
Forget about getting something perfect. Just get something decent. As you learn you will find what suits you. You can resell and upgrade if needed at that point.
Learning how to play the pedalsteel is super fun, challenging and captivating. |
Agreed. |
I think either the Stage One or Justice Jr. would work fine. But I think there's a long wait for a Stage One. IMO, the Justice Jr. ticks all the boxes for a good price, and is a fully professional all-pull mechanism to boot.
And I agree with Bob to just get started. There's no time like right now, the sooner the better, as long as you can get something reasonable with mechanics that don't frustrate you.
Do pay attention to ergonomics. I'm tall, I need a taller guitar - I raise everything up 2". If I was buying a new guitar, I'd get it with longer legs and pedal rods. My legs literally would not fit under the first guitar I bought, and couldn't work the levers. Some people need steels that are shorter than average. I'd say typically someone significantly taller than 6' or shorter than perhaps 5'6" might need an adjustment to the steel height, up or down. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 6:51 am
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Jason, if you attend to SWSGA show in Mesa (überübermorgen) you can sit down behind lots of steel guitars, get lots of conflicting opinions, and maybe buy one at a reasonable price.
http://www.swsteelguitar.com/2024_show.htm |
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Jim Cooley
From:
The 'Ville, Texas, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 2:15 pm
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| I am not a big fan of so-called beginner steels. You will get a lot of mileage out of a good quality 3 X 4 pedal steel. It might even be all you will ever need. Different steels just feel...well...different, even steels by the same manufacturer. By all means, try before you buy if that is possible. Going to the SWSGA show is a great idea. You will find players and vendors at the regional shows very helpful. Keep an open mind. Welcome to the madness. Have fun! |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 2:20 pm
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| Quote: |
| That can be an issue if you put your volume pedal close to the pedalboard. If you move the volume pedal back, away from the pedalboard, your knee doesn't go up and down nearly as much when you operate the volume pedal. |
Wow, thanks for the tip. That actually worked.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 5:11 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
The other big choice is E's lowered on the left or right. Paul Franklin has them lowered on the right which is what I also did. But the thing about that is, it is also the leg with your volume pedal so sometimes it can be difficult to regulate the volume tone while engaging the E's lowered lever. |
That can be an issue if you put your volume pedal close to the pedalboard. If you move the volume pedal back, away from the pedalboard, your knee doesn't go up and down nearly as much when you operate the volume pedal. |
I found the same to be true.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 17 Jan 2024 6:07 am
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Lots of excellent questions, and of course no shortage of replies ! ( all good )
here's my take
2k Is a reasonable budget. Of course if you can acquire a clean PRO guitar in that range, by all means do so. But somehow you have to confirm if it is mechanically sound , not all used Pedal steels are ready to go out of the box. And that can cause immense anger !
3+4 is a good all around place to start as you can grow into it over a couple of years. Your Pedal Steel life begins WAY before 3 + 4, more like 2 + 1 or 2+2 is probably where you will spend the 1st year, once you get past all the physical requirements. Adding lever movements isn't just about music, its adding additional physical requirements.
Current model Student guitars can get you a long ways down the road , ( years) when you decide to upgrade, you will know why. There are plenty of seasoned players playing student guitars on gigs these days. Can they move slightly because they are lightweight ? Sure , just work with it. Know your Instrument.
Why E9th Emmons setup, ABC , or Day Setup CBA ? Because probably 90% of the available learning material is this tuning. Just keep in mind that the materials are written for levers/pedals which may be different than your Steel. They are not wrong. You may have to do some quick mechanical conversion in your head. RE Emmons ABC vs DAY CBA, the pedals do the exact same thing but are reversed. Just know that in advance. Same with the levers, the changes are the same but where they are located on your Steel may be opposite. What a mess ! LOL
IF you are listening to Traditional Country Music it is primarily E9th, there is no possible way to know if the player is ABC EMMONS or CBA DAY setup as the music is exactly the same.
Mechanically, all Pedal Steels, new or used have a plethora of mechanical stops and adjustments. Some are spot on, others are, well, not spot on. But the good news is they are all pretty easy to setup. Once a Steel is mechanically setup it should remain that way for years, as long as it is a quality Instrument.
Last comment, Volume Pedal. Obviously we all use one but from the get go, take an 8" piece of 2x4 and place your right foot on it, rather than starting with the V pedal. This will train your V pedal foot to sit steady while playing and its about the same height as a V pedal. Of course you don't have to do this but your right foot will love you for it as you will not be treating the V pedal like a Gas pedal !
Start slow, play slow, remember if you can't play slow you can never play fast. 
Study and practice the basic elements until you can't take it anymore, then do it again tomorrow ! RUDIMENTS.
Enjoy the ride, its awesome ! Feel free to PM me at any time with questions.
BEST tp
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Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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