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Topic: C6 String 1 Question |
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 7:43 am |
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I'm cleaning and setting up a friend's modern D-10 and I will eventually be selling it for him.
I'd like to hear opinions on C6 string 1.
There are no pulls on the 1st string. It currently has an .011 so I deduce that it was a G (all the strings were loosened before shipping so I'm just being guided by the gauge).
My question is, when I put fresh strings on it, should I string it with a G or a D (heavier string) on string 1?
Is G old school and less common these days? Is D more likely to cover the needs of a D-10 buyer today?
There is no right or wrong answer in that they are both options and I have the gauges I'll need for whichever but I want to choose the string that is less likely to need to be changed out. |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 8:04 am
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If the guitar eventually sells to a knowledgeable player they will most likely understand the options.
If it goes to a newbie you can always explain the options.
No pulls so someone will be out $1.50 worst case.
I'd just string it up with whatever you have on hand.
ymmv
h
_________________
Howard Parker
03\' Carter D-10
70\'s Dekley D-10
52\' Fender Custom
Many guitars by Paul Beard
Listowner Resoguit-L |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 8:20 am
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Many pro players opt for the D. I've been back and forth. I can see the advantages of that D note and why they would do that.
Maybe it's because I'm not the most well versed player on the C tuning, but I just can't seem to lose the G. I miss it a lot when it's not there and I do have a 1/2 tone raise on it.
I have just changed the first string to a 12 which is the packaged gauge in the Nashville set. The weather has put a halt to my tinkering for now, but I'm gonna see if this is a suitable gauge for both notes so I can tune in G and tune down to D as desired. If the 12 is too floppy for the D, then I'll go up another gauge. I'm hoping this is going to let me have both. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 8:32 am
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My magic string tree. If I need a gauge, it's there (flip side has the unwound strings) And if I shake it right, I can make it rain.
I'm not in a position to give advise to beginners but if someone came to me who played non-pedal 8 string C6 I could see how the G would just make sense. Old school and as good today as it was yesterday. Someone without that background who expects to study and learn modern pedal steel? I guess D.
Since I play Universal 12 and have never had a C6 neck, I haven't been through the evolution of the C6 so I'm just spouting out my best understanding of the two choices.
Could be that I'm making some wrong assumptions. |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 8:45 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
I'm not in a position to give advise to beginners but if someone came to me who played non-pedal 8 string C6 I could see how the G would just make sense. Old school and as good today as it was yesterday. Someone without that background who expects to study and learn modern pedal steel? I guess D. |
I think you are selling yourself short, my friend!
h |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 8:55 am
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If you have a C-to-C# raise, engaged with P5 you get an A6th rooted at the 8th string with the 2nd steing (E) being the 5th. Raise that up 3 frets and tou got C6th with a 5th (G) on top.
The D string gives you much more than the chirpy high G.
- 9th to your 7th steing rooted Major
- 11th to your 8th string rooted minor
- 6th/13th to your 9th string rooted Major
- Root to your “two-below”-minor of which the 10th steing is the b7th.
Besides, you Jon having played an E9th Uni, are used to “inside-out” strings.
I long debated this, I would not go back to a high G with pedals.
… JD
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 9:30 am
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I expect that I'll put a D on it and feel out a potential buyer. I sometimes read posts from people who say "I only plan to play the C neck straight, without pedals for starters" and I could see such a person having a better go of it with the G.
Ideally I'll just ask the buyer what they want and they will know. I'm not tying myself in knots. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 3:02 pm
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If you put a .011 or .012 on there, you'll find that it tunes down from G to D ok without being unduly floppy. Some players don't choose, they just retune on a per-song basis.
A half tone raise is appropriate to both.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 3:12 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
If you put a .011 or .012 on there, you'll find that it tunes down from G to D ok without being unduly floppy. Some players don't choose, they just retune on a per-song basis.
A half tone raise is appropriate to both. |
That's encouraging for Jerry, above, and I'll take guidance from it as well.
I'm doing this mostly as a favor for a friend and don't need to make more work for myself than is necessary. So I have no intention of adding any pulls to this guitar unless a buyer is really insistent. So string 1 will have no pulls. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 3:30 pm
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Like you, I play a uni so I have both anyway! 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 5:07 pm
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In October of 1977 I met Paul Franklin Jr. and Mike Smith in the Bill Lawrence showroom at the Andrew Jackson Hotel during Disk Jockey Week (what the event was called back in those days). One of the first things Paul asked me was what string did I have on s.1 of C6.
I replied "G" of course. Paul immediately said that if I wanted to play jazz other than Western Swing, or "modern music," I'd be well served to put a D string on the s.1 position, with an explanation of how it worked. I tried it, saw how it worked with the C-C# raise on s.3, and never went back.
The opportunities listed in JD Sauser's post above list the principle advantages. Of course, your own creativity and imagination will decide how to best utilize the tuning change, but I'd offer that seeing the comparison to the F# note on s.1 of the E9th tuning would be a good starting point.
Now, even on non-pedal C6, I have a D note. It's become imperative for me for the last 47 years.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 5:15 pm
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| Herb Steiner wrote: |
Now, even on non-pedal C6, I have a D note. It's become imperative for me for the last 47 years. |
That's a big enough statement to actually shift the foundation of the conversation. Thanks Herb. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 5:33 pm
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| I've seen several players use a 12 or so string and tune back and forth. If I'm using the D note, I don't have that upper register 5 note when I need it. What am I missing? Or do you guys just not need or use it? |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 5:39 pm
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
| I've seen several players use a 12 or so string and tune back and forth. If I'm using the D note, I don't have that upper register 5 note when I need it. What am I missing? Or do you guys just not need or use it? |
That's the situation in which the C-C# raise on s.1 in combo with p.5 is essential.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 6:45 pm
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pretty sure Doug Jernigan has a high G which he tunes down to D depending on the song. if it works for Doug, it works for me.. although I rarely tune mine down.
I'm not the greatest jazz player, not even close.. but I do play a lot of Thelonious Monk and other unconventional things and still find the G works best for me. I realize I'm in the minority but I also lower 2 and raise 3 to D which isn't too common either
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Bill Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, Ga. USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 8:32 pm
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| scott murray wrote: |
| pretty sure Doug Jernigan has a high G which he tunes down to D depending on the song. if it works for Doug, it works for me.. |
Actually Doug does the opposite. He tunes up to G for Streets of Laredo and classical tunes. I’ve sat behind him enough times on bass to confirm that. Each time he tunes up to G I’m certain it’s going to break  but never seen it. Not sure what gauge he uses. 0.015 is standard for the D but I am guessing it’s a bit lighter.
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Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 9:39 pm
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yes of course Bill. makes sense that he'd keep it at D most of the time, but it's technically a G string
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 10:27 pm
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I don't know what gauge he uses, but I seriously doubt it's a 15. I'm thinking if my 12 is too floppy at D, I'll try a 13 maybe as I've used it before on a G string but it's tight enough I sure wouldn't advise anything larger.
Last edited by Jerry Overstreet on 14 Jan 2024 6:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 14 Jan 2024 6:26 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| Herb Steiner wrote: |
Now, even on non-pedal C6, I have a D note. It's become imperative for me for the last 47 years. |
That's a big enough statement to actually shift the foundation of the conversation. Thanks Herb. |
Yep, you got told by HS, now you know what'cha gotta do. 
I know I said I would not have a high G again on a pedaled C6th. Actually, I play all my single note lines without any pedals and levers because I want to remain able to play it on non-pedal at any time.
BE used some P7 down and the Cb lever here and there. I can do that, but prefer to be able to play it all without pedals as I travel often with only a non-pedal. So all my non-pedal steels end up C, E, D... my 12 string PSGs C, E, D, B (half below C) similar to Maurice Anderson's S12 non-pedal which however HAD the high G added.
I also run a D on the bottom. On 10 stringers in lieu of the low C, on my 12 stringers C, D, F, A, C... which gives me the roots to all 4 main chords of the tuning (CMaj & it's relative minor Am as well as FMaj & it's relative minor Dm (position which most of y'awlls call "The Two-Below")).
Maurice had that on all his steels and when playing his non-pedal C6th, he pointed down to that low D and said "I wouldn't want to be without that" (I still played Jerry Bird's C# (like P in front of the low C... which MA found "dated".
If one would like to give a name to C6th, one might as well call it Dm 11th across all strings.
I would evidently NOT suggest to put the low D on a "4-Sale" guitar.
But would tend to bet that the 1st string D which Bobbe Black introduced to BE the the 60's (source: BE Bio Book) is by now the closest thing to "Standard".
The last one I've heard hollering on youtube "don't switch yer high G to a D!" was Bobbe Seymore and that was way back in the 90's when I think it was Jon here who suggested I was most likely old, rich and eccentric (I never denied either).  but I AM older now, richer too and the eccentricities have not swelled down either.
Btw: yer E9th-Universal has that same note out of the E9th chromatics relative to B6th, C#/Db.
... J-D...
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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